17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[lucky4034]

Then it could go the other way though. Zimmerman had no knowledge of what Martins intentions were and if he was attacked and knocked to the ground with Martin on top of him would he also not feel threatened enough to be able to defend himself?

I don't dispute this... its not the event of Zimmerman pulling a gun and pulling the trigger I have a problem with. Its the events that led up to that happening and I think this is why this case is so complex.

At first glance, it looks cut and dry. But once you get all the details, it becomes a mess.

I completely understand a man getting pummeled grabbing his gun and pulling the trigger and it being considered self defense in normal circumstances. But this isn't a normal circumstance. When Zimmerman was the one CREATING the problem, at what point did Trayvon transfer his role as victim over to Zimmerman?

I have a problem with the extent that Zimmerman took to CREATE confrontation.... The question in my mind is did he push Trayvon to the point where Trayvon felt that Zimmerman was a threat that he needed to deal with?

IMO the answer very well could be YES!

 

[hornadylnl]

That's what Zimmerman did, why's he wrong and you're right?



It wasn't a public place. Florida law considers gated communities to be all private property and the streets are not dedicated to public use but to the HOA to direct. The HOA owns and maintains the streets. The HOA can decide who is granted access and employ patrols to keep out trespassers. Access can be denied to police not on official business (warrant, arrest. or bona fide investigation). Zimmerman was within his rights even if he had stopped and questioned Martin.

So, it was Zimmerman's property?

Again, show me real PROOF that Martin iniated the physical contact and I'll eat the largest crow you can find.

I'm still waiting on you to quote my posts where I called for Zimmerman's blood. You made the accusation, now prove it.

 

[hornadylnl]

I don't dispute this... its not the event of Zimmerman pulling a gun and pulling the trigger I have a problem with. Its the events that led up to that happening and I think this is why this case is so complex.

At first glance, it looks cut and dry. But once you get all the details, it becomes a mess.

I completely understand a man getting pummeled grabbing his gun and pulling the trigger and it being considered self defense in normal circumstances. But this isn't a normal circumstance. When Zimmerman was the one CREATING the problem, at what point did Trayvon transfer his role as victim over to Zimmerman?

I have a problem with the extent that Zimmerman took to CREATE confrontation.... The question in my mind is did he push Trayvon to the point where Trayvon felt that Zimmerman was a threat that he needed to deal with?

IMO the answer very well could be YES!

Haven't you seen the thug's tweets and facebook pictures?

 

[griffin]

If Zimmerman is allowed to question Martin's motives, Martin can question Zimmerman's.

I have no problem with this statement. What Martin cannot do is initiate a fight. All testimony and physical evidence points to that.

It does not appear that anyone has any evidence--eyewitness testimony, physical, phone audio, anything--to dispute that.

All evidence points to Tray initiating physical contact and punching Zimmerman. Zero evidence points to Zimmerman initiating physical contact and punching Tray.

Yet some people insist that Zimmerman started the physical altercation. Let's say he did. Where's your evidence? Anything. The police don't see it. The State's Attorney doesn't see it. Evidently the special prosecutor doesn't see it.

 

[lucky4034]

That's what Zimmerman did, why's he wrong and you're right?

The reason is that Zimmerman may have been breaking the law by following Martin... and most definitely broke the law by chasing him.

Had he seen Martin commit a crime, then there would be no issue.... but he mis-profiled the kid then began to follow a minor around in a car. Followed him enough to make him run... and then CHASED HIM while he was running.

Keep in mind that the kid was innocent of all crime and had no clue who in the hell Zimmerman was.

 

[hornadylnl]

I have no problem with this statement. What Martin cannot do is initiate a fight. All testimony and physical evidence points to that.

It does not appear that anyone has any evidence--eyewitness testimony, physical, phone audio, anything--to dispute that.

All evidence points to Tray initiating physical contact and punching Zimmerman. Zero evidence points to Zimmerman initiating physical contact and punching Tray.

Yet some people insist that Zimmerman started the physical altercation. Let's say he did. Where's your evidence? Anything. The police don't see it. The State's Attorney doesn't see it. Evidently the special prosecutor doesn't see it.

I don't know that Zimmerman did initiate the fight. Please show me this "All evidence points to Tray initiating physical contact and punching Zimmerman" because I'm not seeing it. Where in the 911 recording is there proof that Martin had attacked him before he hung up with 911?

I'm sorry, but if I thought a pedophile was stalking me to rape and/or kill me, you better believe I'm coming out swinging if I felt I had nowhere to hide.

 

[hornadylnl]

The reason is that Zimmerman may have been breaking the law by following Martin... and most definitely broke the law by chasing him.

Had he seen Martin commit a crime, then there would be no issue.... but he mis-profiled the kid then began to follow a minor around in a car. Followed him enough to make him run... and then CHASED HIM while he was running.

Keep in mind that the kid was innocent of all crime and had no clue who in the hell Zimmerman was.

Martin was a thug. He was not entitled to stand his ground.

 

[lucky4034]

I
It does not appear that anyone has any evidence--eyewitness testimony, physical, phone audio, anything--to dispute that.
.

And yet no one has any evidence to prove it either? Only the testimony of the guy who pulled the trigger.

Oh he and Trayvons girlfriend who it has been confirmed was on the phone WITH Trayvon at the time of the incident, yet you dismiss her as a credible witness completely.

 

[griffin]

So "See something, say something" is bad from the feds but good from the locals?

Where do you get that? Have I ever said anything about either one being good or bad? I am just telling you how the SPD trains their neighborhood watches. It is what it is.

Why wasn't Martin's girlfriend interviewed?

Good question.

Where is the news report that states Martin's girlfriend said that Martin initiated the fight?

I haven't read that she said Martin initiated the fight. I have read that she said that Martin walked up to Zimmerman (against her protestations not to) and asked him, "Why are you following me?" At that point she said his hands-free earpiece or whatever he was wearing came out and that was the last she heard.

Again, this is just news stories, not from anything the police have verified.

 

[lucky4034]

Martin was a thug. He was not entitled to stand his ground.

Exactly and I mentioned that earlier. Had Martin been a LTCH holder... he may have been justified in "standing his ground" and shooting Zimmerman.

 

[lucky4034]

Where do you get that? Have I ever said anything about either one being good or bad? I am just telling you how the SPD trains their neighborhood watches. It is what it is.Good question.I haven't read that she said Martin initiated the fight. I have read that she said that Martin walked up to Zimmerman (against her protestations not to) and asked him, "Why are you following me?" At that point she said his hands-free earpiece or whatever he was wearing came out and that was the last she heard.

Again, this is just news stories, not from anything the police have verified.

This is her quote...

He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on. He said he lost the man...I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run but he said he was not going to run.

Trayvon said, 'What, are you following me for,' and the man said, 'What are you doing here.' Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again and he didn't answer the phone.

 

[thebishopp]

The only thing I have seen regarding a witness says that it was Zimmerman who was shouting.

Here's one link I have seen others:

Witness reportedly saw Trayvon Martin beating George Zimmerman before shooting - Interviews - Hannity - Fox News

and if not already a 911 call:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hj4RHJ0taoc[/ame]

 

[griffin]

It wasn't a public place. Florida law considers gated communities to be all private property and the streets are not dedicated to public use but to the HOA to direct. The HOA owns and maintains the streets. The HOA can decide who is granted access and employ patrols to keep out trespassers. Access can be denied to police not on official business (warrant, arrest. or bona fide investigation). Zimmerman was within his rights even if he had stopped and questioned Martin. The HOA appointed him "watch captain."

Ooh, this is an interesting point. I wonder how the law treats this "private property" in relation to your actual dwelling and curtilage. Probably different, but not being familiar with gated communities it is an interesting point.

 

[griffin]

at what point did Trayvon transfer his role as victim over to Zimmerman?

Legally? When Tray came back to confront Zimmerman.

 

[lucky4034]

Haven't you seen the thug's tweets and facebook pictures?

You know the sad part about all the people in here posting anything they can find to discredit this kid or paint him a criminal?

Its that they are the first ones to complain about how the Black Panther Party, Sharpton and JJ are trying to paint him a choir boy....

So to lower themselves to their standards, they go completely polar and follow in their footsteps.

I don't see how ANYTHING in either of their pasts helps clear up this incident?

So what? the kid had gold teeth and listened to rap music? HE LIVED IN DADE COUNTY MIAMI for petes sake....

 

[lucky4034]

Legally? When Tray came back to confront Zimmerman.

This is speculation.... you keep saying this, but there is no evidence of this other than what Zimmerman said happen.

 

[Fargo]

That's what Zimmerman did, why's he wrong and you're right?

It wasn't a public place. Florida law considers gated communities to be all private property and the streets are not dedicated to public use but to the HOA to direct. The HOA owns and maintains the streets. The HOA can decide who is granted access and employ patrols to keep out trespassers. Access can be denied to police not on official business (warrant, arrest. or bona fide investigation). Zimmerman was within his rights even if he had stopped and questioned Martin. The HOA appointed him "watch captain." What's your problem with contract and property rights anyway?

I seem to remember a funny little U.S. Supreme Court case known as Marsh v. Alabama which, along with its progeny, may make your above argument really dangerous for Mr. Zimmerman. If it is as you describe, the potential federal civil rights case may have just went from a non-starter to a real possibility.

"Private Properties" can really cease being just that when they start performing functions traditionally associated with the government.

Joe

 

[hornadylnl]

For all those saying the 911 transcript was definitive proof. Didn't the transcript say that he was following in the vehicle, got out, got back in and the call ended? If that's the case, how did Zimmerman manage to end up on the ground with Martin on top? Did Martin pull off a herculean effort by tearing the door off of Zimmerman's truck and dragging him out of it?

Had Zimmerman pulled up to the kid immediately instead of following him for who knows how long and identified himself to Martin, would things have gone down differently? What if he offered him a ride out of the rain? I can see nothing other than Zimmerman had already convicted him as a criminal right there on the spot.

Why was Martin not allowed to stand his ground?

 

[findingZzero]

I guess the lesson learned is if you carry a firearm don't be a dick.

Didn't Jesus say whether you carry a firearm or not ' don't be a dick.' But I'm only paraphrasing here..

I think my mother said that as well. I know yer a boy, but don't be a dick, Richard.

 

[lucky4034]

For all those saying the 911 transcript was definitive proof. Didn't the transcript say that he was following in the vehicle, got out, got back in and the call ended? If that's the case, how did Zimmerman manage to end up on the ground with Martin on top? Did Martin pull off a herculean effort by tearing the door off of Zimmerman's truck and dragging him out of it?

Had Zimmerman pulled up to the kid immediately instead of following him for who knows how long and identified himself to Martin, would things have gone down differently? What if he offered him a ride out of the rain? I can see nothing other than Zimmerman had already convicted him as a criminal right there on the spot.

Why was Martin not allowed to stand his ground?

I listened to the 911 call and read the transcripts and NO WHERE does it say that he got out or got back in his truck. It only says that the police officer in route will "see my truck". No mention of whether or not he is in it at the time.