17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[seamus]

I used to be bigger than I am. I'm 6', used to weigh 225 (down to 185 right now). I was attacked once by a guy who weighed no more than 140 and was about a foot shorter than me.

Don't look at people's size and assume that just because someone is smaller, that he's reasonable and won't pick a fight with someone bigger.

I saw a tiny Guamanian kid try to pick a fight on my 6ft 3 200lb roommie at a bowling alley!? I saw a few of the kid's "friends" watching and suggested to the that they should talk their buddy from fighting my friend since he fought golden gloves in St. Louis and was one of Michael Spinks former sparring partners. The kid was either dumb or high or possibly both, I saved him from getting a beatdown.

 

[CarmelHP]

Would any of this have happened if Zimmerman had followed Dispatch'e instructions and stayed in his car instead of acting like he was Gecko45?

They didn't tell him "stay in your vehicle," they said, "we don't need you to do that (follow him), and Zimmerman responded "OK." We don't know what transpired after that. From the 911 call, it sounds as if Martin then approached Zimmerman ("he's coming toward me"). That would indicate that Martin initiated, at least, the face to face contact between the two.

 

[KG1]

The part in the report about Zimmerman stating he was calling for help seems to corroborate with a witness account that said Martin was on top of Zimmerman beating him and it was Zimmerman calling out for help.

In my opinion this case all hinges on is who initiated the actual physical contact. I don't think there is anything as of yet to provide definitive proof of that so in my opinion the self defense issue is still plausible.

In plain English, self defense may not be a legal defense if Zimmerman initiated the altercation. That's the question of the day. The answer appears to be what's missing from the initial investigation and the source of all the angst.

Edit: Regardless of how this turns out, I'm confident Zimmerman feels terrible about what happened. I'm also confident the gun community will not benefit.

Acknowledged in one of my previous posts.

 

[lucky4034]

It's because the "anti-Z" crowd is mostly fueled by emotion instead of actually taking an objective look at what happened.

To my knowledge there has'nt been any proof presented that totally discounts a self defense claim on the part of Zimmerman.

How can you defend yourself from self defense?

At what point do you think Martin decided threatened enough to defend himself?

Was it after he had been followed for 3-4 blocks in the middle of a cold, rainy night by an adult male that was nearly twice his size? ....

Maybe it was after that adult male had stopped his vehicle and began to approach him on foot?

----------------------------------------------

Leave all the emotion out of it you want... had Zimmerman not called 911 but Martin did... then what argument would you make?

911 Dispatcher: "Hello this is 911 how may I assist you?"

Martin: "My name is Tray, I am 17yo and I am walking home alone from the gas station and this suspicious guy in a car has been following me for 4 blocks. I am scared"

911 Dispatcher: "Ok Tray, just stay calm and keep walking. We have a police officer on the way ok..."

Martin: "Ok... but hurry he has been following me and I'm still about 4 blocks from my house... Uh oh... he just stopped the car and got out."

911 Dispatch: "Help is on the way... hold tight Tray..."

-----------phone gets hanged up----------------

Zimmerman: "What are you doing out here... where do you think you are walking."

Martin: "Why in the F are you following me man....leave me alone"

--------------------------------------------------------


Police show up and see Zimmerman standing over Martin's dead lifeless body....


Police officer: "Get on the ground... put your gun down. You are under arrest."




Game over......

 

[ATOMonkey]

I think the ensuing wrongful death civil suit will pretty much so be a slam dunk.

Zimmerman is going to be paying for this FOREVER.

 

[CarmelHP]

Leave all the emotion out of it you want... had Zimmerman not called 911 but Martin did... then what argument would you make?

911 Dispatcher: "Hello this is 911 how may I assist you?"

Martin: "My name is Tray, I am 17yo and I am walking home alone from the gas station and this suspicious guy in a car has been following me for 4 blocks. I am scared"

911 Dispatcher: "Ok Tray, just stay calm and keep walking. We have a police officer on the way ok..."

Martin: "Ok... but hurry he has been following me and I'm still about 4 blocks from my house... Uh oh... he just stopped the car and got out."

911 Dispatch: "Help is on the way... hold tight Tray..."

This brings up an interesting point, but perhaps not the one you wanted. If Martin was so terrified, as you claim, then why did he NOT call 911. He had a phone on this cold (about 70 deg.) and rainy night. He was supposedly terrified by this "creepy white guy" as you call him, yet Zimmerman's 911 call indicated that Martin was walking toward Zimmerman. It seems like quite counter-intuitive behavior to me. Walk toward the creepy guy? Not call for help? His father was in the neighborhood, call him if not 911, yet he apparently did not. Why not if he was as frightened as you claim?

 

[seamus]

Bottom line, you can't try to bash the skull in of a guy that stops you and is verbally being a dick to you. /QUOTE]

When I was 17 or 18 and a guy other than a police officer "stopped" me and was verbally being a dick to me, I probably would've punched him too. Every case is different and it would be good for all of us to withhold judgment but it is a great topic for the forum and extremely thought provoking for all of us who carry.

 

[CarmelHP]

I think the ensuing wrongful death civil suit will pretty much so be a slam dunk.

I doubt it.

Zimmerman is going to be paying for this FOREVER.

No doubt about that.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I think the ensuing wrongful death civil suit will pretty much so be a slam dunk.

Zimmerman is going to be paying for this FOREVER.

Actually, if this is applied under Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, a person "defending" themselves, if found innocent, has civil immunity.

 

[Kutnupe14]

This brings up an interesting point, but perhaps not the one you wanted. If Martin was so terrified, as you claim, then why did he NOT call 911. He had a phone on this cold (about 70 deg.) and rainy night. He was supposedly terrified by this "creepy white guy" as you call him, yet Zimmerman's 911 call indicated that Martin was walking toward Zimmerman. It seems like quite counter-intuitive behavior to me. Walk toward the creepy guy? Not call for help? His father was in the neighborhood, call him if not 911, yet he apparently did not. Why not if he was as frightened as you claim?

Actually, I've been in situations where I have asked that exact question half a million times. And the typical response is, that they don't trust police.

 

[seamus]

Naw, to me it tends to show that the shooter was a legend in his own mind. You know, a true internet badass who is unstoppable right up until someone decided to hit back

Kind of like when Jim Everett cleaned Jim Rome's clock.

 

[KG1]

When I was 17 or 18 and a guy other than a police officer "stopped" me and was verbally being a dick to me, I probably would've punched him too. Every case is different and it would be good for all of us to withhold judgment but it is a great topic for the forum and extremely thought provoking for all of us who carry.

I guess the lesson learned is if you carry a firearm don't be a dick.

 

[CarmelHP]

I guess the lesson learned is if you carry a firearm don't be a dick.

Again, no cop bashing.

 

[lucky4034]

This brings up an interesting point, but perhaps not the one you wanted. If Martin was so terrified, as you claim, then why did he NOT call 911. He had a phone on this cold (about 70 deg.) and rainy night. He was supposedly terrified by this "creepy white guy" as you call him, yet Zimmerman's 911 call indicated that Martin was walking toward Zimmerman. It seems like quite counter-intuitive behavior to me. Walk toward the creepy guy? Not call for help? His father was in the neighborhood, call him if not 911, yet he apparently did not. Why not if he was as frightened as you claim?

In hindsight, I bet Trayvon had wished he ran as fast as he could... but again, he doesn't have hindsight working for him at the moment. Maybe we should ask him?

Its sad, but 17yo's are a lot less likely to call 911 at for just any old reason... especially when they are in close proximity of their house. He was on the phone with his girlfriend apparently walking briskly and deciding on whether he should stand his ground or run. When Barney Fife jumped out of the car, it was fight or flight time in his mind... not time to call 911.

Had he had an LTCH he would have shot Zimmerman... then whose side would you take?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kind of like when Jim Everett cleaned Jim Rome's clock.

You mean Chris

 

[CarmelHP]

Actually, I've been in situations where I have asked that exact question half a million times. And the typical response is, that they don't trust police.

He apparently didn't trust his father either as he didn't call him. We have a young, slim, athletic guy yet he didn't just hightail it for Dad's house at the first sign of trouble. Something about his behavior is not adding up to a frightened youth.

 

[CarmelHP]

When Barney Fife jumped out of the car, it was fight or flight time in his mind... not time to call 911.

Yet, apparently, he walked toward Zimmerman.

In hindsight, I bet Trayvon had wished he ran as fast as he could... but again, he doesn't have hindsight working for him at the moment. Maybe we should ask him?

If he was as frightened as you say, why wouldn't he act like it? Maybe he wasn't, we don't know.

 

[Pocketman]

Acknowledged in one of my previous posts.

oops - don't know how I missed that in this short thread.

 

[Que]

He apparently didn't trust his father either as he didn't call him. We have a young, slim, athletic guy yet he didn't just hightail it for Dad's house at the first sign of trouble. Something about his behavior is not adding up to a frightened youth.

A 17-year old boy, in many cases, believes he's a man and many would not run home to daddy, but would attempt to handle the situation as a man would be "expected."

 

[lucky4034]

He apparently didn't trust his father either as he didn't call him. We have a young, slim, athletic guy yet he didn't just hightail it for Dad's house at the first sign of trouble. Something about his behavior is not adding up to a frightened youth.

Next time you have your piece on you and someone threatening comes your way and harasses you... I'll expect you to high tail and run?

Why does "stand your ground" only work for Zimmerman? Let me tell you... because he isn't dead.