17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[ArcadiaGP]

I'm thing you have a chronological disconnect and probably have a poor grasp of physics. A series of immediate events unfolded solely due to one actor. If you don't understand that, well I'm sorry, there's not much more I can do for you.

Guys, someone attempted to insult my intelligence on the internets. I need help.


You seem to be placing all blame on Z's actions, and none on the choices of TM. Curious if you're also of the mindset that "creepy-ass cracka" isn't a racial term... but that's neither here nor there.

TM chose to get a jump on Z.
TM chose to punch Z.
TM chose to not run at this point...
TM chose to wail on Z
TM chose to bash Z's head to the ground
TM chose to make a direct threat of "You're gonna die tonight", while allegedly reaching for Z's gun.

TM made choices that led to his death.

Even looking at this thread title, granted it is old, is biased for TM. Did you get dug into your position when watching MSNBC show TM as a young-boy, while playing modified audio that made Z sound like a racist? Still don't think they've owned up to that...

 

[jamil]

Kutnupe14, what about presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt.

KUT:It's a fact that Martin hadnt committed a crime.
It is Zimmerman's story that Martin initiated the altercation and assaulted him. So far the state has presented no evidence that seriously challenges that story. So, M did commit a crime when he allegedly assaulted Z. It wasn't Z initially following M, and not even M's alleged confrontation of Z. The shooting was a direct result of the alleged assault, which is a crime. If you can disprove Z's story beyond a reasonable doubt, maybe you should be trying this case.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman followed him
Foolish perhaps, but doesn't lead reasonable thought towards manslaughter unless some unreasonable bias is involved.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin was alarmed by Zimmerman following him
Judging from the testimony of the "star witness", M sounded more annoyed or pissed off than alarmed.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman believed Martin to be suspicious
Hey, you got one right.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman used disparaging language to describe Martin
Only if you listen to the modified version the press presented. You seem to be implying that M was racially "profiled" by Z. But who "profiled" whom? Doesn't "creepy ass cracka" sound more disparaging than what Z actually said?

KUT: It's a fact that following a suspicious person is inherently dangerous
Yes, though I would describe it more as inherently foolish when it's not your job to do so.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman was suggested to not follow Martin
As mentioned, nothing the state has presented seriously challenges Z's claim that he stopped following after being told that he shouldn't. It's quite a leap from that to manslaughter.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin has been charged criminally (guilty or not) for violence
This is my understanding as well. But I'm not sure how M's proclivity to violence helps your assertion against Z.

KUT: It's a fact Martin had no weapons
He had no weapon objects like knives, guns, or hammers, but it's very plausible that M was physically capable of beating Z to death.

KUT: It's a fact Zimmerman was armed
This is a fact, however given Z's plausible testimony, he is justified to use deadly force against the threat of serious bodily harm.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin was talking in the phone just prior to his death
The "star witness" did a fine job of helping Z's narrative by letting us in on the conversation.

KUT: It's a fact that if one believes themselves to be in imminent danger, protecting themselves is justified
So which situation describes the greater imminent danger, removing yourself from safety to go back and confront someone who was following you, or having your head bashed onto the concrete?

Z has a story that no evidence has thus far refuted beyond reasonable doubt. M doesn't have a story to believe; but you want to disbelieve Z's story. However, his story is very plausible, which is the very definition of reasonable doubt. I'll disbelieve it when it's proven false. Until then, my doubt in his guilt is reasonable, even if he were only charged with manslaughter.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman set the ball in motion that resulted in this tragedy
If only Z would have stayed in bed that day. Sheesh! Granted, Z was foolish. But that by itself is not a crime, and did not itself cause the outcome. Having the plausibility of Z's story, M could have avoided this by just going home and staying there.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin is dead by Zimmerman's hand
There's plenty of reason to doubt that M had no part in it.

KUT: So yeah, I think manslaughter applies.
I'm sorry, but even manslaughter would have a hard time overcoming reasonable doubt.
[/quote]

As far as the OJ trial, there's no hypocrisy in comparing the two. That's at best a facile gripe, but more likely you're just trying to save face.

Despite being a USC guy, I liked OJ. I didn't believe he did it. I didn't want to believe he did it. But the facts brought out in the trial removed all reasonable doubt.

I can't speak for others. The only reason I think it's relevant is because in that case, racial tensions contributed significantly to the wrong verdict. If his dead wife were black, he'd have still made the headlines, but he'd also be in jail for murder instead of theft. We're seeing the same kind of racial tension surrounding this trial that there was during the OJ trial. That's the only comparison.

I have a feeling it's very likely Z will be convicted of something, if not for outright appeasement, perhaps for political correctness. But it won't be because there's no reasonable doubt.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Guys, someone attempted to insult my intelligence on the internets. I need help.


You seem to be placing all blame on Z's actions, and none on the choices of TM. Curious if you're also of the mindset that "creepy-ass cracka" isn't a racial term... but that's neither here nor there.

TM chose to get a jump on Z.
TM chose to punch Z.
TM chose to not run at this point...
TM chose to wail on Z
TM chose to bash Z's head to the ground
TM chose to make a direct threat of "You're gonna die tonight", while allegedly reaching for Z's gun.

TM made choices that led to his death.

Even looking at this thread title, granted it is old, is biased for TM. Did you get dug into your position when watching MSNBC show TM as a young-boy?

Attempted? Lol... That's me being a smart butt. I actually think you, Jbomb, and a number of others (not all) are quite intelligent. We just happen to disagree. I tend to high road, but some simply wont let a person has an alternate view stay on that path. So oh well, my skin is thick enough that I don't have lash out with name calling. It's the interwebz, so it's hard to really get worked over the ramblings of strangers.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Kutnupe14, what about presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt.

KUT:It's a fact that Martin hadnt committed a crime.
It is Zimmerman's story that Martin initiated the altercation and assaulted him. So far the state has presented no evidence that seriously challenges that story. So, M did commit a crime when he allegedly assaulted Z. It wasn't Z initially following M, and not even M's alleged confrontation of Z. The shooting was a direct result of the alleged assault, which is a crime. If you can disprove Z's story beyond a reasonable doubt, maybe you should be trying this case.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman followed him
Foolish perhaps, but doesn't lead reasonable thought towards manslaughter unless some unreasonable bias is involved.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin was alarmed by Zimmerman following him
Judging from the testimony of the "star witness", M sounded more annoyed or pissed off than alarmed.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman believed Martin to be suspicious
Hey, you got one right.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman used disparaging language to describe Martin
Only if you listen to the modified version the press presented. You seem to be implying that M was racially "profiled" by Z. But who "profiled" whom? Doesn't "creepy ass cracka" sound more disparaging than what Z actually said?

KUT: It's a fact that following a suspicious person is inherently dangerous
Yes, though I would describe it more as inherently foolish when it's not your job to do so.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman was suggested to not follow Martin
As mentioned, nothing the state has presented seriously challenges Z's claim that he stopped following after being told that he shouldn't. It's quite a leap from that to manslaughter.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin has been charged criminally (guilty or not) for violence
This is my understanding as well. But I'm not sure how M's proclivity to violence helps your assertion against Z.

KUT: It's a fact Martin had no weapons
He had no weapon objects like knives, guns, or hammers, but it's very plausible that M was physically capable of beating Z to death.

KUT: It's a fact Zimmerman was armed
This is a fact, however given Z's plausible testimony, he is justified to use deadly force against the threat of serious bodily harm.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin was talking in the phone just prior to his death
The "star witness" did a fine job of helping Z's narrative by letting us in on the conversation.

KUT: It's a fact that if one believes themselves to be in imminent danger, protecting themselves is justified
So which situation describes the greater imminent danger, removing yourself from safety to go back and confront someone who was following you, or having your head bashed onto the concrete?

Z has a story that no evidence has thus far refuted beyond reasonable doubt. M doesn't have a story to believe; but you want to disbelieve Z's story. However, his story is very plausible, which is the very definition of reasonable doubt. I'll disbelieve it when it's proven false. Until then, my doubt in his guilt is reasonable, even if he were only charged with manslaughter.

KUT: It's a fact that Zimmerman set the ball in motion that resulted in this tragedy
If only Z would have stayed in bed that day. Sheesh! Granted, Z was foolish. But that by itself is not a crime, and did not itself cause the outcome. Having the plausibility of Z's story, M could have avoided this by just going home and staying there.

KUT: It's a fact that Martin is dead by Zimmerman's hand
There's plenty of reason to doubt that M had no part in it.

KUT: So yeah, I think manslaughter applies.
I'm sorry, but even manslaughter would have a hard time overcoming reasonable doubt.

As far as the OJ trial, there's no hypocrisy in comparing the two. That's at best a facile gripe, but more likely you're just trying to save face.

Despite being a USC guy, I liked OJ. I didn't believe he did it. I didn't want to believe he did it. But the facts brought out in the trial removed all reasonable doubt.

I can't speak for others. The only reason I think it's relevant is because in that case, racial tensions contributed significantly to the wrong verdict. If his dead wife were black, he'd have still made the headlines, but he'd also be in jail for murder instead of theft. We're seeing the same kind of racial tension surrounding this trial that there was during the OJ trial. That's the only comparison.

I have a feeling it's very likely Z will be convicted of something, if not for outright appeasement, perhaps for political correctness. But it won't be because there's no reasonable doubt.[/QUOTE]

While in disagreement, I appreciate your thoughtful contribution.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Good god... I truly fear for Z's life. There are some sick bastards out there. Oh, and screw CNN.

Cretins gloat, pass around George Zimmerman’s Social Security number after CNN airs it | Twitchy

 

[eldirector]

So, just for argument, here is the Florida Statute for Manslaughter:

782.07 - - 2011 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate

782.07 Manslaughter; aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult; aggravated manslaughter of a child; aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic.—
(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(2) A person who causes the death of any elderly person or disabled adult by culpable negligence under s. 825.102(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of an elderly person or disabled adult, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(3) A person who causes the death of any person under the age of 18 by culpable negligence under s. 827.03(3) commits aggravated manslaughter of a child, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
(4) A person who causes the death, through culpable negligence, of an officer as defined in s. 943.10(14), a firefighter as defined in s. 112.191, an emergency medical technician as defined in s. 401.23, or a paramedic as defined in s. 401.23, while the officer, firefighter, emergency medical technician, or paramedic is performing duties that are within the course of his or her employment, commits aggravated manslaughter of an officer, a firefighter, an emergency medical technician, or a paramedic, a felony of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
History.—RS 2384; GS 3209; RGS 5039; CGL 7141; s. 715, ch. 71-136; s. 180, ch. 73-333; s. 15, ch. 74-383; s. 6, ch. 75-298; s. 12, ch. 96-322; s. 2, ch. 2002-74.

Culpable negligence is defined as reckless indifference or grossly careless disregard of human life.

So, help me connect the dots. Can someone describe exactly how Zimmerman showed any disregard for Martin's life? Let alone " reckless indifference or grossly careless" disregard?

 

[jamil]

I'm thing you have a chronological disconnect and probably have a poor grasp of physics. A series of immediate events unfolded solely due to one actor. If you don't understand that, well I'm sorry, there's not much more I can do for you.

This is the quintessential point of the whole case. Either the culminating events were due solely to one actor, where a non-actor is now dead, or, one of the actors is now dead as a direct result of his own willing participation.

Zimmerman's story is the latter. The state of florida is having a very hard time proving the former. Yet mixed with a pinch of pixie dust, you choose to believe that (notwithstanding your claim not to know.)

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

Good god... I truly fear for Z's life. There are some sick bastards out there. Oh, and screw CNN.

Cretins gloat, pass around George Zimmerman’s Social Security number after CNN airs it | Twitchy

It doesn't matter what happens with the trial , he's screwed .

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Apparently Zimmerman asked the current witness (officer that interviewed him) if she was catholic. He expressed regret for harming someone... she told him that she is Christian, but believes God didn't "mean it that way" in a case of self-defense.

She then mentioned to Z that "the victim" hadn't been ID'd yet. Z responded with "what?!"... and she responded that he had indeed passed. Z sunk his head into his hands and expressed further regret.

The "Murder 2" charges just fell apart on the witness stand. They don't have much left.

 

[churchmouse]

I have a neighbor that is a woman of color with 3 kids. Lives behind us and her kids are over here every day with my granddaughter on the swings and playing in general. She came over a bit ago with the kids and I invited her to read this thread. Katnup, she says your nuts. Her words not mine.
She reminded me of the incident 2 summers ago when she saw a young black male lurking around her SUV. She came out and he started walking down the street. She followed and he turned on her. She maced him and kicked his a$$ with the little baseball bat she always carry's. He managed to stumble away after she got tired of beating on him. She says this whole trial is a load of crap.
No, the thug she assaulted did not die. Yes, she probably would have beaten him to death if she had not ran out of steam.
No, she did not read the entire thread but she can read Cursive.
No link available for this conversation.........

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Contradiction: Eye-witnesses stated TM's hands were under his body. Didn't the tape say Z had his arms spread out on ground? Who moved him?

 

[BigMatt]

Contradiction: Eye-witnesses stated TM's hands were under his body. Didn't the tape say Z had his arms spread out on ground? Who moved him?

I noticed that too. I am unsure about those facts.

If I were to speculate, the eye witness saw the victim with his hands under him and then Z moved his arms after he came out of his adrenaline dump and started thinking about T having a weapon in his hands and playing possum. That is only speculation though.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I noticed that too. I am unsure about those facts.

If I were to speculate, the eye witness saw the victim with his hands under him and then Z moved his arms after he came out of his adrenaline dump and started thinking about T having a weapon in his hands and playing possum. That is only speculation though.

"I spread his hands apart when I was on top of him, and he was still moving/talking. Then the officers came"

Looks like he was squirming. Z got off of him when officer arrived, TM rolled over to hold his chest. That explains it.

This is based on the tape they're playing right now

 

[BigMatt]

"I spread his hands apart when I was on top of him, and he was still moving/talking. Then the officers came"

Looks like he was squirming. Z got off of him when officer arrived, TM rolled over to hold his chest. That explains it.

This is based on the tape they're playing right now

I just heard that. I was wrong in my assumption.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

I really, really wish TM wasn't black. There would be far fewer (read: zero) idiots and racist morons threatening to kill a man that performed in self-defense.

 

[Expat]

I really, really wish TM wasn't black. There would be far fewer (read: zero) idiots and racist morons threatening to kill a man that performed in self-defense.

If TM wasn't black we wouldn't have ever heard of the case. If GZ was black we wouldn't have either.

 

[ArcadiaGP]

2nd Paragraph - Shamu testified that TM had gotten to his father's backyard. Why didn't he stay there?

He went BACK to encounter Z.

The Girl on the Other End of Trayvon's Phone Speaks - Connor Simpson - The Atlantic Wire

 

[churchmouse]

2nd Paragraph - Shamu testified that TM had gotten to his father's backyard. Why didn't he stay there?

He went BACK to encounter Z.

The Girl on the Other End of Trayvon's Phone Speaks - Connor Simpson - The Atlantic Wire

Of course he did. It is how a thug thinks. If he feels in the least bit disrespected he will go back and seek retribution. It is the mentality.

Respect is how they define the term, not us.

 

[Jack Burton]

i contend that if Trayvon martin was acting in any sort of self defense against George, because he didnt like this "creepy cracker" following him, then he could have done something akin to a "hit and run"...get the drop on "creepy guy" punch him once and hard, and then get outa there.

Martin was standing within a few feet of his fathers home after zimmerman left to go back to his car. Martin followed Z back. Why?

 

[A 7.62 Exodus]

They ended tonight with the lead investigator going on record as saying he thought Zimmerman has been telling the truth throughout the entire investigation.