17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[Fargo]

A lot of people decline medical treatment after a head injury. Or lots of other types of injuries. Even serious injuries.

Go ahead. Tell me they don't.

Except he didn't have that sort of head injury, he had scrapes on the back of his head and some separated cartilage in his nose. There was no need to go to the hospital because he wasn't seriously injured. But that doesn't really fit terribly well with his near-death experience now does it...


Joe

 

[NathanJefferson]

Your ENTIRE premise is based on the fact that you believe that Z did not initiate physical contact. If he did, how is T not justified in EVERYTHING that you put forth?

My premise has nothing to do (although I admit that it was worded that way in the begining so your point is valid until clarification...) with who started the fight. If I punch someone in the face that is assault, in no state would deadly force be a good response (not saying it might not be legal, but you would be behind the 8 ball legally speaking, unless you knew the puncher to be a black-belt/seal/etc). If that person continues to punch you until you are unable to defend yourself, are trying to flee or unable to flee and in real fear of serious physical harm that will constitute a felonious assualt, which is generally a level where deadly force is reasonably justifiable.

Even if Z hunted T down, shoved him, provoked him, called him many nasty and racist names and then punch T in the face; the act of T mounting and punching Z in the face would constitute an escalation of violence to which a response of deadly force is justifiable.

If Z started it and T 'kicked his butt' but allowed Z to slink away like a beaten man, this would be a different story.

I don't know if T *WAS* mounted on top of Z, beating his brains in, that is up to the jury to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, but no action up to that point is really valid from what I can discern. It as a felonious assault or not. If it was a felonious assault it would be a justifiable use of force.

In Indiana you can.... if you are BOTH fighting, once someone clearly attempts to disengage from the fight, they are able to use deadly force if reasonably necessary to prevent death or SBI.

Even if Z started the "agressive physical contact", once T is on top of him and slamming his head into the concrete with Z screaming for help (provided that these are indeed the facts as they occured), wouldn't one reasonably presume that Z has attempted to disengage from the conflict, and under Indiana law (I know, different state) POSSIBLY be reasonable in employing deadly force?

From T's perspective, even if he is defending himself from a physically agressive Z, doesn't T's use of force need to stop once he's pounded Z into submission?

Yup.

 

[public servant]

I bet a lot of people say afterwards that they feel OK and don't need a doctor

And clearly...you've suffered enough head injuries to be classified as an expert.

 

[Bunnykid68]

And clearly...you've suffered enough head injuries to be classified as an expert.

I tried to rep you for that, but why is my health being brought into question?

 

[Fargo]

I bet a lot of people say afterwards that they feel OK and don't need a doctor

Exactly! He felt so OK it justified him killing someone! So OK he reasonably feared for his life!

Which is it?

 

[Bunnykid68]

Exactly! He felt so OK it justified him killing someone! So OK he reasonably feared for his life!

Which is it?

afterwards is different then when the action is happening

 

[Fargo]

afterwards is different then when the action is happening

Yeah, but doesn't it generally NOT hurt during the action when your adrenaline is up and your body in fight-mode? I've never had it hurt during the fight, but not after. Nor have I known or heard of anyone who had that response.

Generally, you come out of the fight not realizing your hurt until the adrenaline starts wearing off or you realize your are exsanguinating at an alarming rate. Then, dear sweet heaven above, what you didn't notice a minute ago now has now taken over every facet of your miserable existence.

Or, it hurts during the fight and it hurts even more after.

I've never heard of it hurting during the fight but not after.

YMMV

Joe

 

[Bunnykid68]

Yeah, but doesn't it generally NOT hurt during the action when your adrenaline is up and your body in fight-mode? I've never had it hurt during the fight, but not after. Nor have I known or heard of anyone who had that response.

Generally, you come out of the fight not realizing your hurt until the adrenaline starts wearing off or you realize your are exsanguinating at an alarming rate. Then, dear sweet heaven above, what you didn't notice a minute ago now has now taken over every facet of your miserable existence.

Or, it hurts during the fight and it hurts even more after.

I've never heard of it hurting during the fight but not after.

YMMV

Joe

ok

 

[griffin]

For the 6th or 7th time, what burden of proof do you think your "facts" satisfies? What level of CERTAINTY?

I guess I don't know what you're asking. It appears Zimmerman is telling the truth. Since the prosecutor is required by Florida law to release all evidence, what else do we have?

 

[jbombelli]

Except he didn't have that sort of head injury, he had scrapes on the back of his head and some separated cartilage in his nose. There was no need to go to the hospital because he wasn't seriously injured. But that doesn't really fit terribly well with his near-death experience now does it...


Joe

What matters is what he believed at the time. Not what hindsight shows. It's easy to understand how someone could be in fear of death or serious bodily injury if his head is getting bounced off the pavement and maybe he sees stars.

Even if later it turns out he wasn't injured that seriously.

 

[griffin]

Keep in mind, that Z was bleeding from the nose and back of head.

Which is consistent with Zimmerman's story that Trayvon punched him first then jumped on him and slammed his head into the concrete.

So you don't believe him? Okay, so you're the prosecutor. What's your [STRIKE]theory[/STRIKE] proof on how those injuries happened?

 

[churchmouse]

What matters is what he believed at the time. Not what hindsight shows. It's easy to understand how someone could be in fear of death or serious bodily injury if his head is getting bounced off the pavement and maybe he sees stars.

Even if later it turns out he wasn't injured that seriously.

Your brain can be seriously bounced off the inside of your skull and not leave a lot of marks on the outside......just saying.

 

[griffin]

And how many folks who've just had a near death head-bouncing-off-concrete then refuse to go to the hospital when the police offer to take them immediately after their near-death experience?

So you're Zimmerman on the bottom after getting punched in the nose and your assailant is on top of you trying to slam your head into the concrete repeatedly. How long do you wait until you think you're sufficiently near death to pull your gun and shoot your assailant?

Kutnupe said all it takes is one really good strike. He's so good at it that he could kill you in one. Do you wait until you think that really good strike is about to happen?

I think my IQ is going down from reading your posts.

 

[Fargo]

So you're Zimmerman on the bottom after getting punched in the nose and your assailant is on top of you trying to slam your head into the concrete repeatedly. How long do you wait until you think you're sufficiently near death to pull your gun and shoot your assailant?

Kutnupe said all it takes is one really good strike. He's so good at it that he could kill you in one. Do you wait until you think that really good strike is about to happen?

I think my IQ is going down from reading your posts.

The feeling is mutual but I generally try not be insulting to the people I debate. My post was a question, not a statement so I question how you find your intellect diminished.

You really do take the canonization of St. George to a religious level. No one can even question his version without be branded stupid.

Enjoy your evening and smug self-satisfaction, I'm happy to discuss and argue but I've no tolerance for being insulted in the process.

Joe

 

[griffin]

none of Z DNA was found under T's nails nor the cuffs of his hoodie. This is interest why, you might ask? Z was bald right? So how does T get a firm enough grip to slam his head over a dozen times against the sidewalk?

Uh, pushing his on his forehead to slam his head into the concrete repeatedly? This would be the most natural, but I suppose I could think of some other ways. There are several ways to push or grab his head without using your fingernails.

 

[griffin]

If that person continues to punch you until you are unable to defend yourself, are trying to flee or unable to flee and in real fear of serious physical harm that will constitute a felonious assualt, which is generally a level where deadly force is reasonably justifiable.

If you are unable to defend yourself then you are dead. You need to shoot your assailant and stop the threat before you are unable to defend yourself.

There is no law that states you are required to take a physical beating.

 

[churchmouse]

So you're Zimmerman on the bottom after getting punched in the nose and your assailant is on top of you trying to slam your head into the concrete repeatedly. How long do you wait until you think you're sufficiently near death to pull your gun and shoot your assailant?

Kutnupe said all it takes is one really good strike. He's so good at it that he could kill you in one. Do you wait until you think that really good strike is about to happen?

I think my IQ is going down from reading your posts.

I do believe that Fargo is loving this.
He makes a few good points and then Zoom....off and gone


Just a thought....Try and punch me and see what happens. Any movement at all that I feel threatened by and I am going to do my absolute best to level whoever is the threat. If you wait, well, you bleed.
I you get hit first you bleed and possibly have already lost the confrontation.
If my only recourse at that point is to end the threat with a weapon....

You guys can argue this and that for another year. Until you are getting your A$$ handed to you and things are turning pink and blue you have no idea what you would do.

 

[griffin]

Until you are getting your A$$ handed to you and things are turning pink and blue you have no idea what you would do.

I do. I trained in martial arts (what is now called MMA--fight until your opponent is maimed or dead) for a small number of years. Frankly I enjoyed it, but f' that. I'm shooting you.

 

[cobber]

There is a lot of detailed analysis of "evidence" here. Has either side actually admitted any yet?

Hmm?

Carry on.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Uh, pushing his on his forehead to slam his head into the concrete repeatedly? This would be the most natural, but I suppose I could think of some other ways. There are several ways to push or grab his head without using your fingernails.

....and Z being punched in the nose 25-30 times, yet no inuries or blood on T's fists, palms, wrists, fingers, or thumbs? That makes sense to you, or anybody else?