17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[2ADMNLOVER]

At what point ( if at all ) does a person's history / actions , character / reputation come in to play ?

IMO , (from what little I've seen) Z had a reputation for being a "good / decent " man .

He had the physical injuries to back up his side of story .

T , looked like (ditto ^ ) if he wasn't already , he was on his way to becoming a thug .

He's not here to tell his side of it so why doesn't his past actions "speak" to the probability of what his actions were on the night he died ?

I guess / think / speculate that it will come down to what actually can be proven / disproved or who can sway the jury but doesn't / shouldn't a person's history / character come into play ?

 

[jbombelli]

...just as nobody can say that T wasn't defending himself. For all we know, Z, a stranger to T, displayed his firearm in an attempt to detain him, at which point T would be justified in using deadly force to escape his armed captor.

NOBODY knows what happened that night except Z, and in a situation where he is accused of murder and may possibly lose his freedom, there isn't a more biased source in recalling what happened that night.

All anybody can say, with 100%, is that T was doing nothing, other than looking "wrong" to Z.

So? Z still shouldn't have been charged with anything because nobody can say that he wasn't defending himself. And lack of any real evidence to the contrary, and with plenty of evidence to support his story, I choose to believe his story. Because it's the only story there is. I'm not going to do like you, and make up a bunch of what-if ****.

 

[griffin]

For the moment, lets presume all the circumstances you list above are gospel truth and there is nothing beyond that list that contradicts it. What degree of certainty do you believe that PROVES his story to?

It certainly meets the legal standard of self-defense and he shouldn't have been prosecuted. So he goes to court and all this is put forth and the jury says, "Yeah, griffin had it right. Looks like self-defense."

Nothing changed. There is no more proof then than now.

 

[griffin]

At the end of the day, NOBODY, other than Z and T know what started the fight.... YES or NO?

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right. If no one knows, why is Zimmerman being prosecuted? By your own admission there is no proof, no one knows.

 

[Kutnupe14]

You aren't missing anything.

Other than the fact that T must have been "weaker than branch water." Z says that T bouched his head off the sidewalk a dozen times. I assure you, I will knock anyone unconscious if I bounced their head off a sidewalk ONCE. And if I'm given the opportunity to do it TWELVE times, you'll be dead and your skull in fragments. We've all seen the picture of Z's injuries.... not even close to indicating a head being slammed against concrete 12 times.

This is a major issue for me, as Z's acct appears (unless T has muscular atrophy) to be a whopper.

 

[Kutnupe14]

For the sake of argument, let's say you are right. If no one knows, why is Zimmerman being prosecuted? By your own admission there is no proof, no one knows.

the appearance of accountability, which is wrong. (assuming we have all there is to know).

 

[griffin]

by people who have somehow never heard of this case before.

Not true at all. Only by people who have agreed to listen to the facts as presented and judge them objectively. There is no standard requiring the jurors not be familiar with the case. If that were true we'd never have a jury trial.

Have you ever sat for trial or for jury selection? Foreknowledge of a case is often assumed. That does not disqualify you.

 

[Fargo]

Well, Zimmerman passed a voice stress test and a polygraph test. He was videotaped the next morning doing an on-site walk-through of the events with the police. This was after being with the police all night long being interrogated.

Both he and Trayvon have wounds consistent with his story. The timeline matches and the movements of each match his story and have been corroborated on a map and in the field.

He has been grilled about his story over and over and over again by the police. Witnesses that he had no way of knowing about gave statements. Not once did his story change or conflict with any witness testimony. All of the 911 calls corroborate his story. Every single one. Immediately after the shooting when he was sitting in the back of the police car he kept repeating, "I was yelling for help, why did nobody help me?" or something to that effect. This was captured on witness 911 audio.

Either he's telling the truth or he's the smartest person the Sanford Police and the State of Florida has ever come across.

Oh, and BTW your list above is not accurate, at least according to the officer who investigated it:

George Zimmerman inconsistent: George Zimmerman changes details, makes claims inconsistent with other evidence - Orlando Sentinel

Full report noting multiple inconsistencies: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Sections/NEWS/zimmerman_martin_evidence_20120626.pdf


Oh and there was no polygraph either that I can find anywhere, just 2 voice stress analysis.

George Zimmerman Passed 2 Lie Detector Tests | TPMMuckraker

I think you are going to have a hard time proving anything with these "facts" you recite.


Joe

 

[jbombelli]

Other than the fact that T must have been "weaker than branch water." Z says that T bouched his head off the sidewalk a dozen times. I assure you, I will knock anyone unconscious if I bounced their head off a sidewalk ONCE. And if I'm given the opportunity to do it TWELVE times, you'll be dead and your skull in fragments. We've all seen the picture of Z's injuries.... not even close to indicating a head being slammed against concrete 12 times.

This is a major issue for me, as Z's acct appears (unless T has muscular atrophy) to be a whopper.

Oh, so you're a medical expert now too? LOL. How long have you been a trauma surgeon?

How often have you had someone on top of you bouncing your head off the sidewalk? How often have you bounced someone else's head off a sidewalk while he resisted?

That's what I thought.

 

[Fargo]

It certainly meets the legal standard of self-defense and he shouldn't have been prosecuted. So he goes to court and all this is put forth and the jury says, "Yeah, griffin had it right. Looks like self-defense."

Nothing changed. There is no more proof then than now.

Uh, since the defense has no burden to prove anything once it assert prima facia self defense, I don't really see your point. Its like saying that your evidence proves it to the same level as nothing at all.

I want to know what your (flawed) litany PROVES? You are the one claiming it proves something or that something is gospel.

I've never said he should be convicted. After equating unproven to denied; that is at least the 2nd if not the 3rd strawman you've tossed up in the last 24 hours.

For the 6th or 7th time, what burden of proof do you think your "facts" satisfies? What level of CERTAINTY?

Joe

 

[Fargo]

Oh, so you're a medical expert now too? LOL. How long have you been a trauma surgeon?

How often have you had someone on top of you bouncing your head off the sidewalk? How often have you bounced someone else's head off a sidewalk while he resisted?

That's what I thought.

And how many folks who've just had a near death head-bouncing-off-concrete then refuse to go to the hospital when the police offer to take them immediately after their near-death experience?

Thats what I thought....

 

[Kutnupe14]

Oh, so you're a medical expert now too? LOL. How long have you been a trauma surgeon?

How often have you had someone on top of you bouncing your head off the sidewalk? How often have you bounced someone else's head off a sidewalk while he resisted?

That's what I thought.

Trauma surgeon? Nah.... I'm just good at math

and the other facts that none of Z DNA was found under T's nails nor the cuffs of his hoodie. This is interest why, you might ask? Z was bald right? So how does T get a firm enough grip to slam his head over a dozen times against the sidewalk? We all can picture in our heads, some getting their head slammed repeatedly, and forcefully by another. But no DNA??? Hmmm.... maybe Martin just bounced his head like a basketball, waiting for it to "bounce back up," before pushing it down again, right?

Keep in mind, that Z was bleeding from the nose and back of head.....and yet, NONE of that DNA ended up on T hands, cuffs or sleeves? What am I missing here???? That much blood, and yet NONE of it ends up on the places, if Z is telling the truth, that T was in contact with him.
If you don't see why that's an issue....

 

[jbombelli]

And how many folks who've just had a near death head-bouncing-off-concrete then refuse to go to the hospital when the police offer to take them immediately after their near-death experience?

Thats what I thought....

A lot of people decline medical treatment after a head injury. Or lots of other types of injuries. Even serious injuries.

Go ahead. Tell me they don't.

 

[jbombelli]

Trauma surgeon? Nah.... I'm just good at math

and the other facts that none of Z DNA was found under T's nails nor the cuffs of his hoodie. This is interest why, you might ask? Z was bald right? So how does T get a firm enough grip to slam his head over a dozen times against the sidewalk? We all can picture in our heads, some getting their head slammed repeatedly, and forcefully by another. But no DNA??? Hmmm.... maybe Martin just bounced his head like a basketball, waiting for it to "bounce back up," before pushing it down again, right?

Keep in mind, that Z was bleeding from the nose and back of head.....and yet, NONE of that DNA ended up on T hands, cuffs or sleeves? What am I missing here???? That much blood, and yet NONE of it ends up on the places, if Z is telling the truth, that T was in contact with him.
If you don't see why that's an issue....

Maybe the lack of a firm grip is why Z wasn't so badly injured. Hmmm?

His nose was broken, the back of his head was injured. Are you really going to sit there and try to imply he did it to himself?

 

[Kutnupe14]

Maybe the lack of a firm grip is why Z wasn't so badly injured. Hmmm?

His nose was broken, the back of his head was injured. Are you really going to sit there and try to imply he did it to himself?

I was hoping you'd go there.

Z stated T punched him in the nose 25-30 times, breaking and bloodying, his nose. Well Jbombelli, T's autopsy notes that no blood, dirt, offensive or defensive wounds were found on T's fists, palms, nor fingers.

Who punches someone in the nose 10 times, let alone 25-30 and doesn't have some sort of evidence indicating such? Further, did Z's nose NOT start bleeding until after the 30th blow, thus explaining why there was no blood on T's fists?

Please explain, how you think this is possible?

And before you ask, I have broken and bloodied a nose or two in my life (mostly in Karate Tournaments).

 

[Bunnykid68]

And how many folks who've just had a near death head-bouncing-off-concrete then refuse to go to the hospital when the police offer to take them immediately after their near-death experience?

Thats what I thought....

I bet a lot of people say afterwards that they feel OK and don't need a doctor

 

[Bunnykid68]

I was hoping you'd go there.

Z stated T punched him in the nose 25-30 times, breaking and bloodying, his nose. Well Jbombelli, T's autopsy notes that no blood, dirt, offensive or defensive wounds were found on T's fists, palms, nor fingers.

Who punches someone in the nose 10 times, let alone 25-30 and doesn't have some sort of evidence indicating such? Further, did Z's nose NOT start bleeding until after the 30th blow, thus explaining why there was no blood on T's fists?

Please explain, how you think this is possible?

And before you ask, I have broken and bloodied a nose or two in my life (mostly in Karate Tournaments).

Link to these reports please. Never heard about being punched 25-30 times and have heard nothing about no DNA being found on the little dirtbag

 

[Kutnupe14]

Link to these reports please. Never heard about being punched 25-30 times and have heard nothing about no DNA being found on the little dirtbag

So you think, that if true this information is relevant?

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

And how many folks who've just had a near death head-bouncing-off-concrete then refuse to go to the hospital when the police offer to take them immediately after their near-death experience?

Thats what I thought....

Folks have been known to refuse medical treatment not understanding how injured they really are .

 

[Bunnykid68]

So you think, that if true this information is relevant?

If there is new information I want to see it. Relevant to what? Our conversation or the impending trial?