17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[Pinchaser]

Casey Anthony......how soon we forget.....hope is all we got for the state of FL.

Can't blame Casey Anthony on the jury. The prosecution in that case was so pathetically inept that the jury had no choice. If they're going to do as they are charged, they can only consider what they are given at trial. Given that, any jurist would have been forced to find her not guilty.

 

[Fargo]

The wounds were on the back of Zimmerman's head which pretty strongly suggest he was on his back on the bottom. Just saying.

Oh, I don't dispute that it is probable that Z was at some point on his back based on the abrasions. I just quibble with the idea that we "know" much of anything.

I find Z's story to be for the most part plausible and it is entirely possible that it happened substantially as he said.

That said, it is also completely possible that he has been less than completely honest, especially in light of his lack-o-truthiness in the bond hearing .I do think there is some backfilling involved insofar as he claims to not actually have been pursuing T etc.

Either way, I don't see how the state comes close to proving its case so I don't think he should have been charged; much less with murder.

He may be guilty, he may be innocent, for all I know he may be an alien in disguise who hates skittle eaters. Either way, I don't pretend to know.

Best,


Joe

 

[Sainte]

As far as the bond hearing, who knows, he may have been confused as to the legal use of that money thinking it was for lawyer fees only.

It could be he didn't want to be in jail next to Crayon's family and peers......

 

[Fargo]

As far as the bond hearing, who knows, he may have been confused as to the legal use of that money thinking it was for lawyer fees only.

It could be he didn't want to be in jail next to Crayon's family and peers......

Completely aside from the fun little code he and the wife were using to hide the money, repeatedly using a term for colored writing sticks to refer to a dead black kid really brings a whole new level of class to INGO...

I really don't know why it has been tolerated to date.

Joe

 

[Sainte]

Completely aside from the fun little code he and the wife were using to hide the money, repeatedly using a term for colored writing sticks to refer to a dead black kid really brings a whole new level of class to INGO...

I really don't know why it has been tolerated to date.

Joe

Why are you brining race into this? I certainly did not. Even if he were a white kid, or even a "white-Hispanic" named trayvon, I would still refer to him as Crayon.

The fact is that he was a piece of garbage and deserves all of the respect he has earned, ZERO!

His criminal record has been scrubbed at least three times by detectives in an effort to make arrest numbers at the high school he attended appear lower. Those charges included possession of thieves tools, stolen female jewelry, drugs and drug paraphernalia.

So go defend this piece excrement while a guy who at least was trying to make a difference for himself and his neighbors gets railroaded into 2nd degree murder charges and, I predict will be convicted because of all the pro-trayvon media. Media, an idiot judge and the fear of black rioters got OJ off, they will get Z found guilty ala the Rodney King trial. I do hope I am wrong but.........

 

[Hornett]

If Z had been on top of T or had him on the ground, at the time of the shooting, there would have need clear evidence of that at the scene.
Not that any would have cared to actually collect said evidence...

 

[DragonGunner]

Can't blame Casey Anthony on the jury. The prosecution in that case was so pathetically inept that the jury had no choice. If they're going to do as they are charged, they can only consider what they are given at trial. Given that, any jurist would have been forced to find her not guilty.

Agree prosecution could of been better....disagree with everything else. I watched and listened to some of the jurors who spoke why they found her inocent and it had nothing to do with the prosecution.....and I quote...."theres no way she could of done this to her baby, no mother could ever do that, so she couldn't be guilty." The DNA gene pool for that FL county is probably the worse in the country...thats my understanding from the people I know that live in FL.

 

[BigMatt]

I watched and listened to some of the jurors who spoke why they found her inocent and it had nothing to do with the prosecution.....and I quote...."theres no way she could of done this to her baby, no mother could ever do that, so she couldn't be guilty."

That's funny, I couldn't find that quote anywhere. Do you have a source for that?

Actually, when I was looking into this, it sounds like the jurors based their verdicts on the evidence (or lack of), not that there wasn't any way a mother could do that to her baby:

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts...ury-wanted-to-find-her-guilty-but-the/1179177

 

[churchmouse]

Completely aside from the fun little code he and the wife were using to hide the money, repeatedly using a term for colored writing sticks to refer to a dead black kid really brings a whole new level of class to INGO...

I really don't know why it has been tolerated to date.

Joe

I showed the remark to my future son in law who is a young man of color by the way and he thought it was on point. He has a friend in his home town that runs with that handle.
He agrees to the double standard we have in the cultures.

I often agree with your posts and positions on things but for some reason in this thread you are off in a corner. That is merely my opinion and nothing more. I could be offended by your avatar, Bart mooning all of us, Butt I am not. (did you see what I did there)
Crayon is just another handle.

Many of us have to deal with these thugs and their mentality on a daily basis and it gets real old real fast. They have no respect for life, property or civility. They are a virus to society. When confronted they about their behavior violence is all they know and understand. Some of us are not afraid to respond with what they want. Some of us are fed up and just will not take it anymore.

 

[Expat]

Agree prosecution could of been better....disagree with everything else. I watched and listened to some of the jurors who spoke why they found her inocent and it had nothing to do with the prosecution.....and I quote...."theres no way she could of done this to her baby, no mother could ever do that, so she couldn't be guilty." The DNA gene pool for that FL county is probably the worse in the country...thats my understanding from the people I know that live in FL.

Reminds me of the Menendez jurors. Some of them were quoted as saying they felt so bad for the young men having lost their parents.... if they hadn't butchered them, they would't have lost them...

 

[Expat]

That's funny, I couldn't find that quote anywhere. Do you have a source for that?

Actually, when I was looking into this, it sounds like the jurors based their verdicts on the evidence (or lack of), not that there wasn't any way a mother could do that to her baby:

Casey Anthony juror #2 says the jury wanted to find her guilty, but the evidence 'wasn't there' | Tampa Bay Times

"That a mother would want to do something like that to her child just because she wanted to go out and party," he said. "We felt that the motive that the state provided was, in our eyes, was just kind of weak."

Quotes from Jury Foreman.
Death of Caylee Anthony - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Fargo]

I showed the remark to my future son in law who is a young man of color by the way and he thought it was on point. He has a friend in his home town that runs with that handle.
He agrees to the double standard we have in the cultures.

I often agree with your posts and positions on things but for some reason in this thread you are off in a corner. That is merely my opinion and nothing more. I could be offended by your avatar, Bart mooning all of us, Butt I am not. (did you see what I did there)
Crayon is just another handle.

Many of us have to deal with these thugs and their mentality on a daily basis and it gets real old real fast. They have no respect for life, property or civility. They are a virus to society. When confronted they about their behavior violence is all they know and understand. Some of us are not afraid to respond with what they want. Some of us are fed up and just will not take it anymore.

Hang on a sec, Trayvon Martin did WHAT to you? You dealt with him when? Know him how?

I'm curious how you know that he was part of this virus and what he did/didn't have respect for other than MSM reports. You know, those same reports that were so grossly misleading/inaccurate at the outset of this fiasco.

I personally find referring to a dead black kid by the moniker "crayon" to be poor taste at best. If others don't that is certainly their perogative.

BTW, I work in the criminal court system. I deal with thugs of every kind day in and day out so you need not act like I don't know what goes on and the depravity with which humans routinely treat each other.

Maybe its because I'm a lawyer, but I tend to look at things through the lens of the law. By my read of the situation, a reasonable 17 yr old person would have grounds to be in fear for himself if he was being obviously stalked by an older man as he walked home through a neighborhood. At that point, Florida's self-defense statute provides him with certain protections and justifications.

He wasn't the pursuer, he was the pursued. I don't fault him for shaking Z and letting him pass to get in a better tactical position. At that point, the law was on the person being pursued's side.

It is what happens after that that is so murky and where no one but Z really knows what happened.

I maintain that Z was a dumbass for putting himself in a position where T would have a reasonable fear for his safety. He put himself in a very precarious legal position and if he had pulled the gun on T but had it taken away and was killed, I think T would almost certainly have a valid justification defense.

You know, that whole stand your ground thing. Start stalking me as I'm walking home minding my own business, I'm gonna push back too.

My point is that from a legal standpoint, without reference to anyone's background, the dead kid stood on much better legal self-defense ground than the guy chasing him.

I have a hard time agreeing with many in this thread that because he was a kid with a checkered past, he somehow forfeited his legal rights and that his pursuer killing him was somehow a good thing.

I just don't see it.

BTW, I spend much of my time off in a corner by myself, my wife says its were I usually belong.

Joe

 

[Sainte]

So he was so worried about being followed that he called his "girlfriend" and not the police.

The guy was a scumbag pure and simple. I am betting you're a public defender and capable spinning good "theories" and even convincing yourself that they are true. It seems what lawyers are best at.

I say this not as an attack on you but, as an observation on the lawyer mindset.

I am not saying T deserved to die but, he certainly wasn't going to contribute anything to society, well except maybe a paycheck for a Floridian public defender in the near future.

 

[Fargo]

So he was so worried about being followed that he called his "girlfriend" and not the police.

The guy was a scumbag pure and simple. I am betting you're a public defender and capable spinning good "theories" and even convincing yourself that they are true. It seems what lawyers are best at.

I say this not as an attack on you but, as an observation on the lawyer mindset.

I am not saying T deserved to die but, he certainly wasn't going to contribute anything to society, well except maybe a paycheck for a Floridian public defender in the near future.

Egads! I am undone! Damn you all for killing my clientele!!!

Take the above with as little or as much dripping sarcasm as makes you happy.

 

[Sainte]

I'm sure you don't.....

 

[jamil]

Hang on a sec, Trayvon Martin did WHAT to you? You dealt with him when? Know him how?

I'm curious how you know that he was part of this virus and what he did/didn't have respect for other than MSM reports. You know, those same reports that were so grossly misleading/inaccurate at the outset of this fiasco.

I personally find referring to a dead black kid by the moniker "crayon" to be poor taste at best. If others don't that is certainly their perogative.

BTW, I work in the criminal court system. I deal with thugs of every kind day in and day out so you need not act like I don't know what goes on and the depravity with which humans routinely treat each other.

Maybe its because I'm a lawyer, but I tend to look at things through the lens of the law. By my read of the situation, a reasonable 17 yr old person would have grounds to be in fear for himself if he was being obviously stalked by an older man as he walked home through a neighborhood. At that point, Florida's self-defense statute provides him with certain protections and justifications.

He wasn't the pursuer, he was the pursued. I don't fault him for shaking Z and letting him pass to get in a better tactical position. At that point, the law was on the person being pursued's side.

It is what happens after that that is so murky and where no one but Z really knows what happened.

I maintain that Z was a dumbass for putting himself in a position where T would have a reasonable fear for his safety. He put himself in a very precarious legal position and if he had pulled the gun on T but had it taken away and was killed, I think T would almost certainly have a valid justification defense.

You know, that whole stand your ground thing. Start stalking me as I'm walking home minding my own business, I'm gonna push back too.

My point is that from a legal standpoint, without reference to anyone's background, the dead kid stood on much better legal self-defense ground than the guy chasing him.

I have a hard time agreeing with many in this thread that because he was a kid with a checkered past, he somehow forfeited his legal rights and that his pursuer killing him was somehow a good thing.

I just don't see it.

BTW, I spend much of my time off in a corner by myself, my wife says its were I usually belong.

Joe

The police phone recording of the conversation with Z supports that Z lost T and headed back to his truck. After that all we have is Z's word of what happened, and some physical evidence that doesn't seem to contradict Z's story.

IANAL, and maybe you're right up to the point where T didn't just continue on home. But with Z heading back to his truck, and T coming back to confront him (so far nothing really contradicts that part of the story), how does that work for T's legal standing?

That's why to me, the violence in T's background is relevant. It helps explain to me why T might have come back after Z stopped following him.

 

[Pinchaser]

Agree prosecution could of been better....disagree with everything else. I watched and listened to some of the jurors who spoke why they found her inocent and it had nothing to do with the prosecution.....and I quote...."theres no way she could of done this to her baby, no mother could ever do that, so she couldn't be guilty." The DNA gene pool for that FL county is probably the worse in the country...thats my understanding from the people I know that live in FL.

Exactly the opposite. Jury members made it clear that they could not find her guilty if they only considered the material presented at trial. They emphatically made it clear that they had problems with the prosecution. I'm not sure what you heard, or thought you heard, but it is completely inaccurate.

 

[DragonGunner]

That's funny, I couldn't find that quote anywhere. Do you have a source for that?

Actually, when I was looking into this, it sounds like the jurors based their verdicts on the evidence (or lack of), not that there wasn't any way a mother could do that to her baby:

Casey Anthony juror #2 says the jury wanted to find her guilty, but the evidence 'wasn't there' | Tampa Bay Times

Saw it on the news...over and over again over 2 days. And then was on some talk news shows.

 

[churchmouse]

Hang on a sec, Trayvon Martin did WHAT to you? You dealt with him when? Know him how?

I'm curious how you know that he was part of this virus and what he did/didn't have respect for other than MSM reports. You know, those same reports that were so grossly misleading/inaccurate at the outset of this fiasco.

I personally find referring to a dead black kid by the moniker "crayon" to be poor taste at best. If others don't that is certainly their perogative.

BTW, I work in the criminal court system. I deal with thugs of every kind day in and day out so you need not act like I don't know what goes on and the depravity with which humans routinely treat each other.

Maybe its because I'm a lawyer, but I tend to look at things through the lens of the law. By my read of the situation, a reasonable 17 yr old person would have grounds to be in fear for himself if he was being obviously stalked by an older man as he walked home through a neighborhood. At that point, Florida's self-defense statute provides him with certain protections and justifications.

He wasn't the pursuer, he was the pursued. I don't fault him for shaking Z and letting him pass to get in a better tactical position. At that point, the law was on the person being pursued's side.

It is what happens after that that is so murky and where no one but Z really knows what happened.

I maintain that Z was a dumbass for putting himself in a position where T would have a reasonable fear for his safety. He put himself in a very precarious legal position and if he had pulled the gun on T but had it taken away and was killed, I think T would almost certainly have a valid justification defense.

You know, that whole stand your ground thing. Start stalking me as I'm walking home minding my own business, I'm gonna push back too.

My point is that from a legal standpoint, without reference to anyone's background, the dead kid stood on much better legal self-defense ground than the guy chasing him.

I have a hard time agreeing with many in this thread that because he was a kid with a checkered past, he somehow forfeited his legal rights and that his pursuer killing him was somehow a good thing.

I just don't see it.

BTW, I spend much of my time off in a corner by myself, my wife says its were I usually belong.

Joe

Well I am glad we got that cleared up. Now I kind of understand. I wish you folks up in the courts would keep some of these thugs.........

I did not know him. I did not say he gave anything up but that his actions as they have been presented to us show a propensity to "Thug" life.
I did not "ever" say it was a good thing he was Killed. I said it was the end result of his actions.
Did "Z" screw the pooch by following, maybe. Should he have stayed in his vehicle, probably especially with his lack of self defense skills. He did end the boy so that is a push. Did "T" bring on his death by doubling back and attacking "Z"....In my opinion yes he did. If you deal with these folks daily then you have to know how they approach these things.
You say "Z" was chasing him. That is far from following someone. I have followed and also chased people.
I was also led to believe he did not live in that area. He was not going home.

If I have mis-interpreted the evidence presented so far then enlighten me so I may better understand.

I/we have followed thugs in my area just to let them know they are being watched. As the courts really do not hold these guys to task they have little fear of LEO. They exhibit this in their behavior. Yes, a virus. Resistant to any anti-biotic (laws) we have yet to come up with.
The teenagers are the really dangerous ones as they will always say "I am a minor" what can you do to me. I have heard this first hand when catching them on my property or the neighbors. They will look you straight in the eye and say we all gotta die sometime. They just really are not fearful.
Knowing this I can see how "T" could and would double back and bull rush "Z"
He was a fighter, he loved to rumble and whipping up on a middle aged "White Hispanic was just another notch in his street cred. A leopards spots never totally change especially at 17 years old.

There are several ways to look at this. I see fail on both sides and "T" failed ultimately. "Z" is paying a very high price for his actions.

As to Crayon. As I said, just another handle. You do know how they reference us as a culture....yes. This is kind by comparison.

I know, set a higher standard. For who. These people will never change. What is the success rates of the system towards rehabilitation. They do not want to be rehabilitated as their life style it totally OK with them. They see not one thing wrong unless they get caught. A short stay with friends and family in the local poky and back to business.

Yes, my wife seems to be happier if I am off in my corner. Oh, wait, I am there right now..........

 

[Pinchaser]

BTW, I work in the criminal court system. I deal with thugs of every kind day in and day out so you need not act like I don't know what goes on and the depravity with which humans routinely treat each other.

Maybe its because I'm a lawyer, but I tend to look at things through the lens of the law......

Ummmm....we all get to play who we want to be on an Internet forum. After a while, conduct reveals the real person. If your real life isn't as satisfying as you wish it were, and you want to play a "lawyer" on the Net, go for it....