17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[IndyDave1776]

In Z's case, his gun was not presented prior to being on the ground and getting his head bashed into the concrete.

For Z to have waited til he felt like his life was slipping to draw a gun, I seriously doubt he egged T into a fist fight.

I will agree with Fargo that we don't know that this is what happened, but I do believe the onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this did NOT happen if they want a conviction.

 

[jamil]

I will agree with Fargo that we don't know that this is what happened, but I do believe the onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this did NOT happen if they want a conviction.

Ideally yes. But if the evidence justifies Zimmerman, I hope the jury has the courage to call it that way.

 

[Smokepole]

I will agree with Fargo that we don't know that this is what happened, but I do believe the onus is on the prosecution to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this did NOT happen if they want a conviction.

In our justice system it should be. And the difficulty in accomplishing this, to me would seem to be all the reason not to charge murder. Unless Florida is a state that allows the jury to find guilt of a lesser charge.

 

[Fargo]

Ideally yes. But if the evidence justifies Zimmerman, I hope the jury has the courage to call it that way.

Actually, once he asserts self-defense and make his prima facia showing, the state actually has to prove evidence showing that he wasn't justified.

I know it is a seemingly small distinction, but it is actually quite significant. Basically, at that point Z is presumed justified based upon a minimal showing and the state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he was not.

This is a very difficult evidentiary burden, not only do you have to overcome a presumption to a BRD standard, you also have to prove a negative.

I just don't see how it is done in this case. Granted, Z gave them some decent ammo via the cursing in the 911 call and possibly by being truth-deficient in his bond hearing, but I still don't see how they can meet the burden.

Best,

Joe

 

[Smokepole]

Ideally yes. But if the evidence justifies Zimmerman, I hope the jury has the courage to call it that way.

Judging how things will go politically and in the media during the trial by how things were surrounding the actual event, if I had to guess I would bet that they won't.

 

[No2rdame]

Judging how things will go politically and in the media during the trial by how things were surrounding the actual event, if I had to guess I would bet that they won't.

One thing is for certain. If Z is found not guilty it's the LA riots all over again.

 

[IndyDave1776]

One thing is for certain. If Z is found not guilty it's the LA riots all over again.

It may well be, but if we allow this to sway the administration of justice (i.e., deciding a trial by outside pressure rather than fact established by evidence) we have resigned ourselves to mob rule.

 

[No2rdame]

It may well be, but if we allow this to sway the administration of justice (i.e., deciding a trial by outside pressure rather than fact established by evidence) we have resigned ourselves to mob rule.

Agreed. I was more or less lamenting the fact that the media and the president have both stirred the pot on this issue so much that regardless of their decision the jury may be swayed in part by the repercussions of said decision.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Agreed. I was more or less lamenting the fact that the media and the president have both stirred the pot on this issue so much that regardless of their decision the jury may be swayed in part by the repercussions of said decision.

We can always hope that there are 12 honest and knowledgeable jurors in Florida!

 

[DragonGunner]

We can always hope that there are 12 honest and knowledgeable jurors in Florida!

Casey Anthony......how soon we forget.....hope is all we got for the state of FL.

 

[churchmouse]

Casey Anthony......how soon we forget.....hope is all we got for the state of FL.

Hanging chads...Casey Anthony...we can go on if need be.

 

[griffin]

His injuries were far from life threatening.

He could have been knocked unconscious at any moment. Then he would be at the mercy of the assailant. Also, if memory serves, didn't Z's gun become visible during the fight, and he saw that Trayvon noticed it and was, or he was afraid he was, going to go after it?

 

[griffin]

Follow-up story.

Zimmerman prosecutor withheld evidence

A prosecutor and the Judicial Circuit Information Technology Director hid evidence against Trayvon Martin in an effort to illegally strengthen their case. The IT Director also deleted text messages from Trayvon to prevent the defense from seeing them. He has been placed on leave (probably paid leave).

ORLANDO, Fla.: Lawyer: Zimmerman prosecutor withheld evidence - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

 

[jamil]

His injuries were far from life threatening.

He could have been knocked unconscious at any moment. Then he would be at the mercy of the assailant. Also, if memory serves, didn't Z's gun become visible during the fight, and he saw that Trayvon noticed it and was, or he was afraid he was, going to go after it?

We don't know if T ever saw the gun. That's Z's word. But we do know that T was on top of Z beating the **** out of him. Maybe the injuries that were treated weren't life threatening, but had Z not shot T, could easily have been.

 

[Expat]

My impression is that injuries are generally non-life threatening until they are...

 

[ultra...good]

Follow-up story.

Zimmerman prosecutor withheld evidence

A prosecutor and the Judicial Circuit Information Technology Director hid evidence against Trayvon Martin in an effort to illegally strengthen their case. The IT Director also deleted text messages from Trayvon to prevent the defense from seeing them. He has been placed on leave (probably paid leave).

ORLANDO, Fla.: Lawyer: Zimmerman prosecutor withheld evidence - Trayvon Martin - MiamiHerald.com

Whatever happened to those working in the legal profession doing so to seek truth and justice? Looks like now it is "do whatever you have to do" to win the case.
For all my years it has been about doing the next right thing, honesty, etc. All I see now is lies, manipulation, do what you have to do to get what you want. Has it always been like this and I am just starting to realize it?

 

[chraland51]

The prosecution with probably much help from the DOJ is doing everything they can to get a guilty verdict against Zimmerman. I just hope that the defense does not lay down on the the job if Zimmerman is really innocent of the charges. We all know that should Zimmerman be found not guilty, the racial divide in this country will widen more than it already is. It is almost a given that there will be rioting, looting and even killings in the name of Trayvon. There were actually some black on white killings after Trayvon's death that got almost no coverage in the lamestream media. I only heard about them when I was vacationing down south and not on the national news. I will probably start taking advantage of the rights provided by my lifetime license to carry when I have to come into Indy. I was not there and I only know what I hear and read about what supposedly happened. Justice needs to be done no matter what the outcome. Those that do not like the verdict, whatever it might be, will either have to just live with or suffer the consequences of their resultant actions.

 

[Fargo]

We don't know if T ever saw the gun. That's Z's word. But we do know that T was on top of Z beating the **** out of him. Maybe the injuries that were treated weren't life threatening, but had Z not shot T, could easily have been.

How do we know who was on top? No one beside's Z says they KNOW.

As a person who firmly believes that Z should not have been filed on and that absent some super-secret-surprise evidence he cannot be proven guilty, I find it amusing how I apparently do not meet the INGO purity quotient on this because I have the temerity to suggest that we might not KNOW what happened and that MAYBE Z might not be being completely forthright.

What level of Z worship/T hate would you all find acceptable? Must I actually bear Z's children? Must I pronounce all those who fight at school and smoke weed deserving of death?

I mean c'mon, really? Do I have to drink ALL the kool-aid?

Joe

 

[CarmelHP]

How do we know who was on top? No one beside's Z says they KNOW.
...
Joe

The wounds were on the back of Zimmerman's head which pretty strongly suggest he was on his back on the bottom. Just saying.

 

[DragonGunner]

My impression is that injuries are generally non-life threatening until they are...

Yup.....one punch can end a life, as we saw on the news a few weeks ago when a 17 yr. old hit a 44 yr. old referee with his fist and it killed him....one punch.