17 year old kid shot dead by Neighborhood Watch "Captain"

[churchmouse]

Forget Trayvon for a minute. Is an isolated incident in Florida more troubling than a way of life in American cities, where punks murder each other or innocent victims?

Shouldn't Al or Jesse be trying to change this, rather than focusing on Martin. If they were really trying to better America, rather than just tooting their own horns.

Yes, that should be the total focus of their efforts but it is not. With out these "Incidents" they do not have headline making positions of power so they can extort funds.
This is the real sadness here. My daughters fiance is a young black man. He moved to Indy 7 years ago from Dayton Ohio to escape what he calls the thug life. He was tired of being taken advantage of by his own race. He is hard working and takes excellent care of my daughter and grand child. He hates the Al and Jesse show.

 

[churchmouse]

Tell me exactly what that picture indicates to you. I'm interested how gangsta and the picture have any relevance.

You live a sheltered life. It is so obvious. No issues with that from me.
I interact with a lot of folks of color and have serious conversations about these issues. It is my own not so humble opinion based on fact and real life. You draw your own conclusions from all of this. I am just putting a real face on a part of this. No, I did not know him (Travon) but I know the mindset.

Do with this as you will.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Forget Trayvon for a minute. Is an isolated incident in Florida more troubling than a way of life in American cities, where punks murder each other or innocent victims?

Shouldn't Al or Jesse be trying to change this, rather than focusing on Martin. If they were really trying to better America, rather than just tooting their own horns.

Sharpton and Jackson are blood sucking leeches. They don't care about the black community. They only care about is being on TV and having people listen to them.

 

[Kutnupe14]

You live a sheltered life. It is so obvious. No issues with that from me.
I interact with a lot of folks of color and have serious conversations about these issues. It is my own not so humble opinion based on fact and real life. You draw your own conclusions from all of this. I am just putting a real face on a part of this. No, I did not know him (Travon) but I know the mindset.

Do with this as you will.

Fair enough

 

[churchmouse]

Fair enough

We all have our life's experiences to draw from and our opinions are based mainly on these experiences.
Many have little or no interaction with folks of color. Many have not been in the system. They still have opinions and usually stand by them right or wrong once posted in an open forum such as this.
I admit to having my thoughts and opinions changed by reading this thread and by closely watching the media turn this inside out. I also admit to seeing some of the folks who have posted here for who they really are. OK with that as well.
I am so perfect as to look down on others....."NOT"
This is going to run it's course and I hope the outcome is based totally on fact and not pressure from the media and a group of activist only interested in their own agenda.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Anyways, again trying to get back on topic. Zimmerman has been charged. This means that someone in the legal system, with JD after their name, agreed with a certain detective that believed that PROBABLE CAUSE existed to charge Zimmerman with a crime.

IMO, that should pretty much be the end of the story.... but it's not. Now we have those who have, all thread long, talked about "facts" saying that by charging Zimmerman the court is simply pandering to public pressure. How dear friends could that possibly be known? Those that hold such view don't have the "facts" to support their assertion, unless they've been privy to the actual unreleased affidavit and full case report prior to anyone else.

That's a very hypocritical point of view, as I am 100% sure, that if Zimmerman wasn't charged, those same persons would be saying "hey, a prosecutor decided that Zim had done nothing wrong, they looked at the facts of the case and made their decision; get over it!"

So until anyone has anything else of note to add, it would be in one's best interest not to be a Z "fanboi" and accept the charges as is, again, unless you have additional facts that most of us aren't privy too.

 

[ATOMonkey]

I think it will be difficult for the state to prove murder.

It will be even more difficult for them to prosecute this trial in a fair manner, since it has soooooooooooooo much publicity.

Now, a lesser charge of some form of homicide or manslaughter? I think that case could be made, as the defense would then have to prove self defense, which will be difficult for them.

 

[churchmouse]

Anyways, again trying to get back on topic. Zimmerman has been charged. This means that someone in the legal system, with JD after their name, agreed with a certain detective that believed that PROBABLE CAUSE existed to charge Zimmerman with a crime.

IMO, that should pretty much be the end of the story.... but it's not. Now we have those who have, all thread long, talked about "facts" saying that by charging Zimmerman the court is simply pandering to public pressure. How dear friends could that possibly be known? Those that hold such view don't have the "facts" to support their assertion, unless they've been privy to the actual unreleased affidavit and full case report prior to anyone else.

That's a very hypocritical point of view, as I am 100% sure, that if Zimmerman wasn't charged, those same persons would be saying "hey, a prosecutor decided that Zim had done nothing wrong, they looked at the facts of the case and made their decision; get over it!"

So until anyone has anything else of note to add, it would be in one's best interest not to be a Z "fanboi" and accept the charges as is, again, unless you have additional facts that most of us aren't privy too.

Fair enough.

 

[Kutnupe14]

I think it will be difficult for the state to prove murder.

It will be even more difficult for them to prosecute this trial in a fair manner, since it has soooooooooooooo much publicity.

Now, a lesser charge of some form of homicide or manslaughter? I think that case could be made, as the defense would then have to prove self defense, which will be difficult for them.

I would think that Murder 2 would be difficult as well. I actually expected Zimmerman to walk without being charged. But then again, we only have a bare minimum of facts. For instance, if Zimmerman did something as minor as grab Martin by the arm, to detain him until police arrived, that would change the whole dynamic of what we know.

 

[Expat]

Anyways, again trying to get back on topic. Zimmerman has been charged. This means that someone in the legal system, with JD after their name, agreed with a certain detective that believed that PROBABLE CAUSE existed to charge Zimmerman with a crime.

IMO, that should pretty much be the end of the story.... but it's not. Now we have those who have, all thread long, talked about "facts" saying that by charging Zimmerman the court is simply pandering to public pressure. How dear friends could that possibly be known? Those that hold such view don't have the "facts" to support their assertion, unless they've been privy to the actual unreleased affidavit and full case report prior to anyone else.

That's a very hypocritical point of view, as I am 100% sure, that if Zimmerman wasn't charged, those same persons would be saying "hey, a prosecutor decided that Zim had done nothing wrong, they looked at the facts of the case and made their decision; get over it!"

So until anyone has anything else of note to add, it would be in one's best interest not to be a Z "fanboi" and accept the charges as is, again, unless you have additional facts that most of us aren't privy too.

Talk about hypocritical. We already had the situation you describe. The local PD reported the case to the county prosecutor (or whatever they call them in FL), who reviewed the case and made a determination there wasn't sufficient evidence to file charges in the case. Yet you said it didn't matter, that Zimmerman needed his life ruined anyway. (You got your wish.) Yet now because a hand chosen prosecutor (who seems to have had a choice of charge him or the Feds would) has decided there is evidence to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder, you take the position that it is somehow magical now? That this decision is somehow sacrosanct and shouldn't be questioned. The first prosecutorial review didn't count because it didn't meet with your political agenda? But the second one does?

I don't know what happened down there and none of the rest of us do. As I have said before in this case, we all know exactly what other people want us to know. People who all have their own agendas.

 

[Bond 281]

I would think that Murder 2 would be difficult as well. I actually expected Zimmerman to walk without being charged. But then again, we only have a bare minimum of facts. For instance, if Zimmerman did something as minor as grab Martin by the arm, to detain him until police arrived, that would change the whole dynamic of what we know.

Actually I addressed this in my last post. A good lawyer should show that even if Zimmerman started the confrontation or violence or whatever, his screaming for help and Martin's continued bashing of his head into the concrete turns Martin into the aggressor.

This means that someone in the legal system, with JD after their name, agreed with a certain detective that believed that PROBABLE CAUSE existed to charge Zimmerman with a crime.

Also, are you suggesting that a lawyer wouldn't lie about this? HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHA

 

[Kutnupe14]

Talk about hypocritical. We already had the situation you describe. The local PD reported the case to the county prosecutor (or whatever they call them in FL), who reviewed the case and made a determination there wasn't sufficient evidence to file charges in the case. Yet you said it didn't matter, that Zimmerman needed his life ruined anyway. (You got your wish.) Yet now because a hand chosen prosecutor (who seems to have had a choice of charge him or the Feds would) has decided there is evidence to charge Zimmerman with 2nd degree murder, you take the position that it is somehow magical now? That this decision is somehow sacrosanct and shouldn't be questioned. The first prosecutorial review didn't count because it didn't meet with your political agenda? But the second one does?

I don't know what happened down there and none of the rest of us do. As I have said before in this case, we all know exactly what other people want us to know. People who all have their own agendas.

That load of bull hockey. If you believe that a thorough death investigation can be "open and shut" in a few hours (two to be exact), you are either incredibly naive or disingenuous.

Hell, I've had theft from garage reports that have lasted longer.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Actually I addressed this in my last post. A good lawyer should show that even if Zimmerman started the confrontation or violence or whatever, his screaming for help and Martin's continued bashing of his head into the concrete turns Martin into the aggressor.

Surely your joking right? And if Martin was aware that Zimmerman was armed?

 

[ATOMonkey]

Actually I addressed this in my last post. A good lawyer should show that even if Zimmerman started the confrontation or violence or whatever, his screaming for help and Martin's continued bashing of his head into the concrete turns Martin into the aggressor.

I agree.

A charge of manslaughter, under Florida Law, appears on its face, to be the only charge that actually fits the circumstances.

Murder 3 may be applicable if they can prove that Z was committing a felony at the time.

 

[Glock19]

That load of bull hockey. If you believe that a thorough death investigation can be "open and shut" in a few hours (two to be exact), you are either incredibly naive or disingenuous.

Hell, I've had theft from garage reports that have lasted longer.

Open and shut in two hours? Even though he was taken into the station 4 hours after the shooting and they have been saying its still under investigation. If they would have charged him at the start with no evidence and found him not guilty is that better than waiting a few weeks to find evidence so he can get charged and they can make it stick? People got mad because the police wouldnt release the evidence they had or were looking at, so they jump to conclusions thinking he was never gonna be arrested. This is how the justice system works. Sometimes it takes longer than others, and sometimes it makes mistakes. People refuse to even give it a chance. This man guilty or innocent is probably gonna serve time because of the media.

 

[Bond 281]

Surely your joking right? And if Martin was aware that Zimmerman was armed?

Where is the evidence that Martin knew Zimmerman was armed when he continued the beating after Zimmerman was calling for help? There is more than enough evidence to suggest that Zimmerman tried to disengage but Martin didn't relent, thus making him the aggressor. Enough for reasonable doubt at the least. However the suggestion that Martin was aware Zimmerman was armed and that that was why he continued to violently assault Zimmerman is nothing more than speculation.

Again, where is the evidence that Zimmerman even initiated force? Every other witness that's come forth has been publicly interviewed, so I find it unlikely (though possible) that some new (legitimate) witness emerged a month later to say that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor.

@ATO
Yeah even if though they are charging Zimmerman, it's for a completely wrong charge. Public evidence doesn't support any criminal charge though. It's looking like this will be another Casey Anthony type case where the inept prosecution fails horribly in large part because they charge people with stupid things that don't fit and can't be proven.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Open and shut in two hours? Even though he was taken into the station 4 hours after the shooting and they have been saying its still under investigation. If they would have charged him at the start with no evidence and found him not guilty is that better than waiting a few weeks to find evidence so he can get charged and they can make it stick? People got mad because the police wouldnt release the evidence they had or were looking at, so they jump to conclusions thinking he was never gonna be arrested. This is how the justice system works. Sometimes it takes longer than others, and sometimes it makes mistakes. People refuse to even give it a chance. This man guilty or innocent is probably gonna serve time because of the media.

We shall see once all the facts are made public. I'm already warming up another plate of crow. And hey, it just might be me dining on it the next time. But as things sit currently, the legal system is doing exactly what it is designed to do.

 

[bobzilla]

We shall see once all the facts are made public. I'm already warming up another plate of crow. And hey, it just might be me dining on it the next time. But as things sit currently, the legal system is doing exactly what it is designed to do.

Cave in to the mass media and make stupid charges? I thought that people were supposed to be innocent until proven guilty?

 

[Glock19]

BOND 281 - I agree with everything you just said. I still have my CCW from Florida and if you let anyone see that you are carrying you will get into alot of trouble. They don't play the open carry game down there. CCW- CARRY CONCEALED WEAPON.

 

[Kutnupe14]

Where is the evidence that Martin knew Zimmerman was armed when he continued the beating after Zimmerman was calling for help? There is more than enough evidence to suggest that Zimmerman tried to disengage but Martin didn't relent, thus making him the aggressor. Enough for reasonable doubt at the least. However the suggestion that Martin was aware Zimmerman was armed and that that was why he continued to violently assault Zimmerman is nothing more than speculation.

Again, where is the evidence that Zimmerman even initiated force? Every other witness that's come forth has been publicly interviewed, so I find it unlikely (though possible) that some new (legitimate) witness emerged a month later to say that Zimmerman was the initial aggressor.

@ATO
Yeah even if though they are charging Zimmerman, it's for a completely wrong charge. Public evidence doesn't support any criminal charge though. It's looking like this will be another Casey Anthony type case where the inept prosecution fails horribly in large part because they charge people with stupid things that don't fit and can't be proven.

Dude, if there is guy chasing me, and I actively attempt to evade him, my SA is going to be going through the roof. If that guy catches up with me, and places his hand on me, he's going to be in for the fight of his life.

If a person is armed in such an instance, the person being grabbed in justified in putting two in his chest. You aren't implying that because someone only has their hands to defend themselves, and not a firearm then deadly force is not an option?