Quality control and testing plays a part in price too. True, even with extensive QC there are still horror stories about $2000+ rifles not working right, but QC and the turn down ratio plays into price too. Batch testing vs individual testing
-
Be sure to read this post! Beware of scammers. https://www.indianagunowners.com/threads/classifieds-new-online-payment-guidelines-rules-paypal-venmo-zelle-etc.511734/
Wow here is a game changer for AR15's!
- Thread starter remauto1187
- Start date
The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana
Member Benefits:
Fewer Ads! Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership Discuss anti-gun legislation Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses Discover free outdoor shooting areas View up to date on firearm-related events Share photos & video with other members ...and so much more!
Member Benefits:
Quality control and testing plays a part in price too. True, even with extensive QC there are still horror stories about $2000+ rifles not working right, but QC and the turn down ratio plays into price too. Batch testing vs individual testing
^Answers are in red above to the quoted black ones. I only own 1 Colt as well. Heck I even own 1 DPMS even though it is a LR-308. It would be wise to listen to Mvician. He knows his ARs and I have learned a lot from him. Hell, my first AR was a Stag Model 1(still have it). I then started learning the differences in ARs and found out all ARs are not the same. There is a reason why Colt, BCM, Daniel Defense, LMT, Noveske, etc. cost more. They actually individually inspect each of their parts. This costs time and everyone knows time is money. Yes, every AR will fail. They have metal parts and parts wear down then break. Some are just built to a higher standard. If some can't understand that, then well I really don't know what else to say. YMMV
From another thread
You're saying you already own a Sportical and have put ~4K rounds through it, but in another thread you say you are looking for your first AR. So which is it?? It seems you are making up the whole DPMS w/4K rounds through it that shoots 1 MOA.
- re: all parts come from the same sources. somewhat true for some parts, but QC levels vary. For instance, BCM recently started making their own upper receivers because their rejection rate was so high from their suppliers. If they return 50% of the receivers for not meeting their tollerance threshold, what companies are buying those rejects? This new fly-by-night and BCM might get their receivers from the same source... can you say the quality is the same if the fly-by-night is buying BCM's rejects?
- The most critical difference between a mid-tier (eg DPMS/RRA/etc) and a top tier is the bolt. If you are at all mechanically inclined, you can fix things like castle nut or carrier key screw staking for free. You could even upgrade the carrier key bolts to the correct hardness grade for a couple bucks. My advise for folks buying mid-tier is that if they plan to shoot a LOT of rounds AND use it for defensive purposes is to get someone to do the staking if you can't do it yourself and buy a mil-spec bolt (don't necessarily need the carrier). That might turn your $700 gun into a $775 gun, but still leaves $ for a case of ammo. That said, I've got a RRA BCG that's over a decade old that has to have 15k+ rounds on it.
- Receiver extension I've never gotten too excited about. The difference between cheap commercial and mil spec might make a difference if you are using your carbine to club bad guys or as an improvised step ladder or thowing it out of a helecopter, but even in self defense use the situation where you might actually damage the extension is unlikely. The most likely reason you'd ever damage one (or a stock) is mortaring out a stuck casing. Swapping the actual buffer is an easy and inexpensive change if you feel the need.
- Barrel tooling. Mortaring brings us to the most critical part in a reliable AR. The chamber. The lower end finished barrel manufactures need to run their tooling longer to keep costs down. This means the odds of you getting a chamber w/ tooling marks or out of spec dimensions is higher. This leads to more stuck cases, more working of the brass, less accuracy, etc. If they increase tool life by 10% it's no big deal, unless you're that 1 in 11 that gets a gun made on worn tooling. We've a couple of threads in here recently where a gun had to go back and get a barrel replaced due to a bad chamber affecting reliability. I'm afraid low-mid grade guns bought during the recent 'panic' may be more likely to have these types of issues as some companies were temped to run their tooling longer to maximize output. The higher-end companies are less likely to compromise on their QC standards at the expense of volume.
The very bottom tier, cheapest ARs make me nervous. Who knows who is supplying their parts, how consistent they are, etc. For $100-$200 more you can at least get a RRA/DPMS/S&W (something that has decent customer service and will still be in existance in 2 yrs if you need service) and do the things I mentioned above to increase reliability/durability. That said, I do think you are getting something for your $ by stepping up to a colt/DD/bcm/etc for the reasons mentioned.
-rvb
- The most critical difference between a mid-tier (eg DPMS/RRA/etc) and a top tier is the bolt. If you are at all mechanically inclined, you can fix things like castle nut or carrier key screw staking for free. You could even upgrade the carrier key bolts to the correct hardness grade for a couple bucks. My advise for folks buying mid-tier is that if they plan to shoot a LOT of rounds AND use it for defensive purposes is to get someone to do the staking if you can't do it yourself and buy a mil-spec bolt (don't necessarily need the carrier). That might turn your $700 gun into a $775 gun, but still leaves $ for a case of ammo. That said, I've got a RRA BCG that's over a decade old that has to have 15k+ rounds on it.
- Receiver extension I've never gotten too excited about. The difference between cheap commercial and mil spec might make a difference if you are using your carbine to club bad guys or as an improvised step ladder or thowing it out of a helecopter, but even in self defense use the situation where you might actually damage the extension is unlikely. The most likely reason you'd ever damage one (or a stock) is mortaring out a stuck casing. Swapping the actual buffer is an easy and inexpensive change if you feel the need.
- Barrel tooling. Mortaring brings us to the most critical part in a reliable AR. The chamber. The lower end finished barrel manufactures need to run their tooling longer to keep costs down. This means the odds of you getting a chamber w/ tooling marks or out of spec dimensions is higher. This leads to more stuck cases, more working of the brass, less accuracy, etc. If they increase tool life by 10% it's no big deal, unless you're that 1 in 11 that gets a gun made on worn tooling. We've a couple of threads in here recently where a gun had to go back and get a barrel replaced due to a bad chamber affecting reliability. I'm afraid low-mid grade guns bought during the recent 'panic' may be more likely to have these types of issues as some companies were temped to run their tooling longer to maximize output. The higher-end companies are less likely to compromise on their QC standards at the expense of volume.
The very bottom tier, cheapest ARs make me nervous. Who knows who is supplying their parts, how consistent they are, etc. For $100-$200 more you can at least get a RRA/DPMS/S&W (something that has decent customer service and will still be in existance in 2 yrs if you need service) and do the things I mentioned above to increase reliability/durability. That said, I do think you are getting something for your $ by stepping up to a colt/DD/bcm/etc for the reasons mentioned.
-rvb
Last edited:
Agreed on the BCM rejection rate. I also read the same thing about their BFH barrels being rejected about 50%. There is speculation that PSA is picking up these barrels and re-selling them. Like I said this is just speculation and not my opinion, but it does make you wonder how PSA seems to sell parts at a cheaper discount.
7 pages in and a lot of bashing....but no one who has ever seen one (Bear Creek Arsenal) in person, let alone shot one.
I agree known brands are preferable when betting your life, but until there's an actual real-live comparison, it's just an AR favorite brand circle jerk.
I agree known brands are preferable when betting your life, but until there's an actual real-live comparison, it's just an AR favorite brand circle jerk.
Is it wrong to be skeptical of a new company that's offering the same product as well known companies but at a fraction of the cost? If a car maker came out and said "our product is as good as a Honda, but 50-70%* of the price," wouldn't we be skeptical until we saw proof they were as good as claimed? Sure, some folks like to be beta testers... I look forward to their reviews (both short and long term) before spending my $.
*$500 is 50% of $1000 (eg Colt) and 70% of $700 (eg DPMS).
-rvb
*$500 is 50% of $1000 (eg Colt) and 70% of $700 (eg DPMS).
-rvb
The information is out there and although this "chart" is a few years old, not much has changed.
This is a comparison of commercially produced "M4" style carbines.
And as I said, Company A may produce parts for Company B, C, and D, but to each companies specifications.
And since Colt and FN are the only ones with access to the TDP (Technical Data Package) to produce or contract "milspec" parts for the M16 and M4, what specs are the lower end companies going with? It sure isn't "milspec". The only thing "milspec" on a lower end AR might be the anodizing of the receivers. But they like to throw that word around to make their product sound "on par" with the higher end rifles.
A few have done reverse engineering and destructive testing on parts and have come close if not equal to what the "milspec" is, and a few companies even exceed. But you won't see that on the lower end.
I've never said a lower end AR15 is junk, but to compare them as being the "same" as a Colt because only a few companies make the parts is just silly. Same as saying you are paying more money for the name.
Pissing match? Hardly.
Agreed on the BCM rejection rate. I also read the same thing about their BFH barrels being rejected about 50%. There is speculation that PSA is picking up these barrels and re-selling them. Like I said this is just speculation and not my opinion, but it does make you wonder how PSA seems to sell parts at a cheaper discount.
Well PSA was selling barrels from Centurion Arms a few years ago....they had the barrels turned down to remove the Centurion markings but some got through where the name/logo was still faintly visible
Were they rejects from Centurion? Probably.Are they still doing that today? Who knows.
Yes I actually have 3 AR's that I've bought, what I am looking for now was info on BUILDING my first AR.
The information is out there and although this "chart" is a few years old, not much has changed.
This is a comparison of commercially produced "M4" style carbines.
And as I said, Company A may produce parts for Company B, C, and D, but to each companies specifications.
And since Colt and FN are the only ones with access to the TDP (Technical Data Package) to produce or contract "milspec" parts for the M16 and M4, what specs are the lower end companies going with? It sure isn't "milspec". The only thing "milspec" on a lower end AR might be the anodizing of the receivers. But they like to throw that word around to make their product sound "on par" with the higher end rifles.
A few have done reverse engineering and destructive testing on parts and have come close if not equal to what the "milspec" is, and a few companies even exceed. But you won't see that on the lower end. I should have stated that so consider me schooled.
I've never said a lower end AR15 is junk, but to compare them as being the "same" as a Colt because only a few companies make the parts is just silly. Same as saying you are paying more money for the name.
Pissing match? Hardly.
mvician, Now that you stated a reason I'll retract my "gun snob" comment. I guess I took a little too much exception to the " My $700 DPMS AR is just as good as your $975 Colt 6920
I love that mentality." comment along with the "Honestly there are a lot of differences between a $500 AR and a $1000 AR. Most people won't take the time to learn those differences." implying I didn't take the time to learn. I really should learn not to read too much into a post.sig1473, I'm well aware of the difference between commercial and milspec buffer tubes, their dimensions and the use of 6061 vs 7075. Commercial buffer tubes can have either 6061 or 7075 but a true milspec will use 7075.
Last edited:
mvician, Now that you stated a reason I'll retract my "gun snob" comment. I guess I took a little too much exception to the " My $700 DPMS AR is just as good as your $975 Colt 6920
Like I said the information is out there, you have to take the time to do the research. Gun rags are the worst place to get information, they are full of paid advertisements and do you ever really read a bad review? Hardly.
Also I did not make this comment......I just quoted it.
My $700 DPMS AR is just as good as your $975 Colt 6920
I've been eating, sleeping, dreaming the AR15 for the past 11 years. I've spent enough money that I could probably have bought a new 4X4 pickup.
I have low end and high end and just about everything in between. If I buy something and it's crap, I'll say so. When someone asks what AR15 to buy and they haven't got a clue, I'll recommend the Colt 6920. If they can't afford that much for their first AR, I'll recommend something else. At least with the 6920 if they decide to sell it later on, they'll get a better price and have an easier time selling it than they would something else.
^Yep that was my comment and I still stand by it. I have a Stag that has never malfunctioned once, but is it the same as my Colt, Noveske, or LMT/Noveske? No way in Hades. I've only been eating and sleeping ARs for 6 years(late start) though and always listen to what Mvician says about them.
I thought I was AR15.com to start with...
sangamospecial23j
Plinker
I for one found this discussion informative and interesting. Where is the most affordable place to purchase the Colt 6920?
Then why did you say that all lowers and buffer tubes were made of 7075?:
I'm just confused as to what you are saying. You say you know these things, but post otherwise
The information is out there and although this "chart" is a few years old, not much has changed.
This is a comparison of commercially produced "M4" style carbines.
And as I said, Company A may produce parts for Company B, C, and D, but to each companies specifications.
And since Colt and FN are the only ones with access to the TDP (Technical Data Package) to produce or contract "milspec" parts for the M16 and M4, what specs are the lower end companies going with? It sure isn't "milspec". The only thing "milspec" on a lower end AR might be the anodizing of the receivers. But they like to throw that word around to make their product sound "on par" with the higher end rifles.
A few have done reverse engineering and destructive testing on parts and have come close if not equal to what the "milspec" is, and a few companies even exceed. But you won't see that on the lower end.
I've never said a lower end AR15 is junk, but to compare them as being the "same" as a Colt because only a few companies make the parts is just silly. Same as saying you are paying more money for the name.
Pissing match? Hardly.
mvician,
great chart...thanks for posting!
We are all snobs I our own right. Some are cheap snobs and some are expensive snobs. Some are name brand snobs and some are best deal snobs.
It boils down to 90% of the time, you get what you pay for. Personally, knave no experience with mmc/bear creek arsenal. looking at some reviews online of products produced by the parent company, it looks like it will work for the weekend warrior, but not for the serious gun owner. I would not own one, but would tend to tell someone to be cautious of the company as there are better lowend products from better manufacturers for less than $100 more. But I have not had hands on with the companies product and unless you personally have, you're just making a judgment call.
It boils down to 90% of the time, you get what you pay for. Personally, knave no experience with mmc/bear creek arsenal. looking at some reviews online of products produced by the parent company, it looks like it will work for the weekend warrior, but not for the serious gun owner. I would not own one, but would tend to tell someone to be cautious of the company as there are better lowend products from better manufacturers for less than $100 more. But I have not had hands on with the companies product and unless you personally have, you're just making a judgment call.
halfmileharry
Grandmaster
I run Colt and Armalite. Snob? Maybe, maybe not. I never thought about it before.
I'm surprised by some of the comments (I agree with many by the way).
I'm always seeing threads about building the $500 AR and for a while it couldn't be done or hard to at least.
Now I see this thread again and wondering why we're not happy about a $500 box gun.
This will get some into the AR world for the first time.
I didn't start out my hunting days with a fine custom built shotgun 55 years ago. It was an old single shot 16 ga hand me down. I loved shooting and hunting so I raised my quality of guns as I saw fit at the time.
I was happy as heck to own a Winchester .32 lever action in nickel plating. It didn't matter I had to lead a deer more than a 12ga slug gun but it was mine and I could afford it at the time.
Just saying a $500 box gun as entry level is looking pretty good. Be thankful for the lower prices as it helps keep the "Name Brands" affordable.
In case you didn't notice....You can get an AR for $500 again.....
I'm surprised by some of the comments (I agree with many by the way).
I'm always seeing threads about building the $500 AR and for a while it couldn't be done or hard to at least.
Now I see this thread again and wondering why we're not happy about a $500 box gun.
This will get some into the AR world for the first time.
I didn't start out my hunting days with a fine custom built shotgun 55 years ago. It was an old single shot 16 ga hand me down. I loved shooting and hunting so I raised my quality of guns as I saw fit at the time.
I was happy as heck to own a Winchester .32 lever action in nickel plating. It didn't matter I had to lead a deer more than a 12ga slug gun but it was mine and I could afford it at the time.
Just saying a $500 box gun as entry level is looking pretty good. Be thankful for the lower prices as it helps keep the "Name Brands" affordable.
In case you didn't notice....You can get an AR for $500 again.....
Site Supporter
Staff online
-
Cameramonkeywww.thechosen.tv
Members online
- indyblue
- HKFaninCarmel
- MrSmitty
- indyartisan
- Cavman
- INP8riot
- DoggyDaddy
- bobzilla
- El Conquistador
- Ark
- Longhair
- OneBadV8
- Firehawk
- HoosierHunter07
- Mikey1911
- AndreusMaximus
- KG1
- snapping turtle
- dak109
- KJQ6945
- Leo
- XDdreams
- Duke5555
- jspy5
- auedotq
- Gascitykid
- Eagle21
- JimH
- barber613
- brchixwing
- yetti462
- Smith& W
- COOPADUP
- joshf63a
- abraham743
- Trapper Jim
- flint stonez
- Shadow01
- Tradesylver
- armalitesheepdog
- phylodog
- maxipum
- Brandon
- c604
- Bosshoss
- Colt
- INgunowner
- Cameramonkey
- HnK
- Chance