Why DON'T you take any firearms training classes?

[Wabatuckian]

Because...

1. I have been trained in the past. Handgun and long gun, hand-to-hand, blades, and force-on-force.

2. So-called "trainers" have told me that what I learned in '98 to '2000 (handguns and FoF) is "outdated". That's flat insulting. I've used it and acquitted myself quite well.

The scenarios they want you to believe happen simply do not happen outside of the military.

3. I know how I will respond for sure up to two targets.

I believe that yes, you should get basic training in handguns and rifles.

By this I mean, AQT. Quick'n'Dirty will suffice. Appleseed, folks. You engage multiple targets quickly.

I would like to see something similar with handguns. I tried to get them to let me shoot my 1911 at Appleseed, but Bill of Rights wouldn't let me!

If you can't do it with an old surplus bolt action rifle, it probably can't be done or doesn't need doing. If I am sure someone is in the house, I'll let the dogs chew on 'em for a bit while sitting back in my room and having a nice conversation with the dispatcher. If I have to go investigate a noise, I will take Nikki and a 1911 so I have one hand free to fend off an attack or to use a flashlight.

I practice drawing every night. It's a discipline. I have found that when I need my pistol, it's in my hand. I have also found, through unpleasant experience, that I do count my rounds.

I do not feel right if I have a partial magazine. Time permitting, I will always reload.

Reloads are usually not necessary.

When you are trained, you learn someone else's way of doing things. Everyone is different and you have to find your own methods.

A black belt means that you can start learning, not that you are a master. Same with a basic pistol course. If you can get out of the course to focus on the front sight and not panic, you're ahead of the curve.

How are you holding the pistol? Is your stance perfect? Is the pad of your finger on the trigger instead of your first knuckle?

Who cares, if you're hitting your target? I do half my shooting one-handed and indexing the sights. It's fast and natural if the gun fits your hand. If you cannot draw, shoot a rabbit for supper, an reholster without thinking about it, then you need practice, not training.

Now, the other thing is this: I have been fortunate to live in the country since age 10. I shoot on almost a daily basis, and I can set up targets for rapid fire, lateral movement, etc. Practice the basics I learned in class, in other words.

Do you have a place to practice these techniques, or are they something you'll learn but never be able to master due to range restrictions? Will it be practical, or academic?

Take a buddy to the range. Set up one steel swinger target 15 yards out for yourself, then another for your buddy. See who can score the most hits in the least amount of time.

It's practical and the added stress of competition will force you to concentrate on the basics and not waste shots.

If your range doesn't allow steel, just use a couple IDPA targets.

Move to two targets apiece (if your range allows this) and repeat.

Dryfire or dot nightly. When dryfiring, put a coin on the barrel or slide and don't let it fall.

Practice, practice, practice the basics and then apply them in a Jeet Kun Do format. Adapt. Rigidity will kill you fast.

Good trainers recognize this.

Josh

 

[mikefraz]

I'm a poor college student that is taking 17 credit hours and work during the weekends. Not only do I not have the time, but all the money that I am making is going stright to tuition and other things such as gas and food. Taking out $100-300 for classes just isn't in the cards at the moment. Some day though...

 

[esrice]

I get damn tired of hearing about Tactical Classes from People whose only exposure to Harm's Way is the Movie Screen...

In your opinion, is an instructor (of defensive arms) only worth his salt if he's had combat or "life-taking" experience?

Because of your own experiences would you have trouble learning from someone who hasn't?

Do you think its important for non-military folks to also consider these aspects when looking for a trainer?

Does training have to involve a "professional" instructor? No, plenty of training to be done on your own or with a friend but that doesn’t mean you should look at professional training with a closed mind.

IMO, "training" is done as a student with a teacher. I also find it best if that teacher is a professional. Absolutely necessary? No, but at the very least someone familiar with firearms, and familiar with how to teach firearms.

"Practice" is what is done with your friend(s) after the training has taken place. This is where you practice what you were taught, and having liked-minded friends along helps to get a different perspective on what you're doing, and how you're doing it.

Learning should occur under both of those circumstances.

Nobody is going to teach me how to shoot, I can do that.

But could you do it faster, more accurately, and more efficiently? A good trainer should be able to bring that out of you.

Using friends for their knowledge should not be frowned upon.

No it shouldn't. But it should also be measured carefully.

Are their techniques sound? Do they make sense to you? What is their background? What are their goals? Why do they do what they do? Are your needs similar to theirs? (all in relation to shooting, of course)

One of the best things I've done this year in terms of shooting is to get together regularly with 2 other like-minded friends to practice together and run through drills and techniques that we'd all like to try. This gives us an opportunity to share our individual knowledge collectively, as well as deconflict our gear and motivate each other to keep pushing forward. Between the 3 of us we've trained under 8+ professional organizations. This allows each one of us to benefit exponentially from the others' training base.

And while I HIGHLY recommend the setup to others, I still wouldn't recommend it over professional training.

Another is the way so many instructors expect you to drink their particular brand of Kool Aid as if there aren't dozens of alternative techniques or philosophies out there that have been tried and used by people who have shot and been shot at for a living. Not that I wouldn't expect a school to advance their technique, just that they respect other methods.

One way I measure an instructor or a training company is how tightly they're wound to their dogma. For me, the mark of a superior instructor is one who says "this is my way, please try it while you're here-- at the end of the course take away what works for you and discard the rest".

A "my way or the highway" attitude is a major turnoff. No one person has all the answers. In the training world diversity is a good thing.

 

[lovemachine]

Esrice, that's why I like ACT. They'll show you what they recommend. But will work with you, while you're there, on what works best for YOU.

 

[GARANDGUY]

Esrice, that's why I like ACT. They'll show you what they recommend. But will work with you, while you're there, on what works best for YOU.

As any good instructor or group of instructors should! The whole my way or the highway thing is no good at all! Any "instructor" who thinks they know it all and doesnt continue to train with other instructors or groups of instructors and learn different methods because they think their way is the end all only limit themselves and what they can teach to their clients.
I cant stand that whole "Well im an instructor and noone knows better than me" attitude! Once one thinks their way is better than so and so's way or stops learning because they think they know everything is at the true disadvantage. You learn something new everyday and if you dont then youre not trying. I attend 4 or more trainings a year(would like to do more but I have schedule limitations) with other instructors or schools just to see what else is out there and how is so and so's method different than mine and what can I take from what they taught to make me and those I train or train with better.
The big thing is to get some good training no matter where you go and not to limit yourself! The most important thing is PRACTICE what you learn on a regular basis! Muscle memory is not some new scientific thing,lol. You Will fight or defend like you train!!!!

 

[Fireaxes]

I would take training every day if I could. It is a time/money management issue right now.

In taking Fire/EMS classes, I have learned that you can take the same class with the same Instructor, 2 years apart and learn something new everytime.

 

[USMC_0311]

In your opinion, is an instructor (of defensive arms) only worth his salt if he's had combat or "life-taking" experience?

Because of your own experiences would you have trouble learning from someone who hasn't?

Do you think its important for non-military folks to also consider these aspects when looking for a trainer?

I know this one was not directed at me but I will answer honestly. I do have some prejudice towards instructors who are "self taught" or just took the classes first. Some kind of expereince is important not necessarily "life-taking". When I look a instructors resume and they have all the classes but no practicle application my first touhghts are pretender/wannabe.

IMO, "training" is done as a student with a teacher. I also find it best if that teacher is a professional. Absolutely necessary? No, but at the very least someone familiar with firearms, and familiar with how to teach firearms.

"Practice" is what is done with your friend(s) after the training has taken place. This is where you practice what you were taught, and having liked-minded friends along helps to get a different perspective on what you're doing, and how you're doing it..

We look at it a little differently, I think training and practice are one and the same. Like I said before I was an instructor, I am not one now. That does not mean I forgot anything or couldn't train effectively. It just doesn't pay as much as I want.

But could you do it faster, more accurately, and more efficiently? A good trainer should be able to bring that out of you.

I can always learn something from anybody even its how not do it.

Good practice can bring that out too.

No it shouldn't. But it should also be measured carefully.

Are their techniques sound? Do they make sense to you? What is their background? What are their goals? Why do they do what they do? Are your needs similar to theirs? (all in relation to shooting, of course)

One of the best things I've done this year in terms of shooting is to get together regularly with 2 other like-minded friends to practice together and run through drills and techniques that we'd all like to try. This gives us an opportunity to share our individual knowledge collectively, as well as deconflict our gear and motivate each other to keep pushing forward. Between the 3 of us we've trained under 8+ professional organizations. This allows each one of us to benefit exponentially from the others' training base.

And while I HIGHLY recommend the setup to others, I still wouldn't recommend it over professional training.



One way I measure an instructor or a training company is how tightly they're wound to their dogma. For me, the mark of a superior instructor is one who says "this is my way, please try it while you're here-- at the end of the course take away what works for you and discard the rest".

A "my way or the highway" attitude is a major turnoff. No one person has all the answers. In the training world diversity is a good thing.

I know there are plenty of good instructors and classes. You make a lot of good points. I would love to be able to afford to take them. Cost is a factor, probably for me the biggest. Because of this I find ways to supplement my training, like ask a freind, or watch a video, or just read INGO. My point is poor people can train and do it effectively without a "professional" .

 

[Kirk Freeman]

In your opinion, is an instructor (of defensive arms) only worth his salt if he's had combat or "life-taking" experience?

Depends on what is being instructed, no?

If it is a "this is a gun, don't poke yourself in the eye" or "we gonna shoot steel critters at o'r a hundirt yards", no problem if the instructor does not have the t-shirt.

However, if it is one of those "I don't teach shooting, I teach fighting with a gun, and I can't hear you over the sound of my own awesome", then Skippy dang well better mixed it up in a olive drab or blue t-shirt.

 

[esrice]

Some kind of expereince is important not necessarily "life-taking".

What kind of experience would you consider "practical" if not life-taking? Those I am aware of who have been in actual gunfights took lives (most typically soldiers).

We look at it a little differently, I think training and practice are one and the same.

I'm guessing we agree in principal, but assign different names to it.

Good practice can bring that out too.

For you it may. Why? Because you've already been through training.

Will mere practice help the person who's never fired a gun before?

My point is poor people can train and do it effectively without a "professional" .

I agree that those without financial means should seek out learning in any way they can.

But in most cases I don't believe its a case of not actually having the money, but rather not choosing to put the money they already have into training. Just ask yourself "how much have I spent on firearms hardware in the past year? How much have I spent on software (training)?"

 

[ljadayton]

But in most cases I don't believe its a case of not actually having the money, but rather not choosing to put the money they already have into training. Just ask yourself "how much have I spent on firearms hardware in the past year? How much have I spent on software (training)?"

and how much have I spent at McD's in the past year? I'm making a conscious effort to cut WAY back on fast food, not only for the health reasons but also so I have the extra money to put towards ammo and training. In the last few months since starting this, I've doubled the amount of ammo I own. It's not a lot, especially not compared to some other INGOer's, but it's a start

 

[esrice]

and how much have I spent at McD's in the past year?

I was trying to convince folks to get training in lieu of buying new firearms. You are saving up for training by cutting out food! Bravo!

 

[ljadayton]

I was trying to convince folks to get training in lieu of buying new firearms. You are saving up for training by cutting out food! Bravo!

NOT bacon. MUST buy bacon

 

[ATM]

There must be provision for bacon and training


...and bacon.

 

[jeremy]

In your opinion, is an instructor (of defensive arms) only worth his salt if he's had combat or "life-taking" experience?

Because of your own experiences would you have trouble learning from someone who hasn't?

Do you think its important for non-military folks to also consider these aspects when looking for a trainer?

Evan you are reading to much into my Answer...
I have NO problems with taking Shooting Classes from anyone who has not been in the Military or was an LEO. Hell I don't even care if the only things you have shot were paper and steel.

I have problems with Tactical Classes being taught by People who only learned what they know on the mean streets of some Range at some other training. This goes for the Same People you can encounter in the Military also...

Depends on what is being instructed, no?

If it is a "this is a gun, don't poke yourself in the eye" or "we gonna shoot steel critters at o'r a hundirt yards", no problem if the instructor does not have the t-shirt.

However, if it is one of those "I don't teach shooting, I teach fighting with a gun, and I can't hear you over the sound of my own awesome", then Skippy dang well better mixed it up in a olive drab or blue t-shirt.

Exactly...

 

[Birdstrike]

Got a week of firearm training from the Federal Government but learned more from my Gradpa when I was barely old enough to hold a shotgun :-)

 

[esrice]

Evan you are reading to much into my Answer...

I wasn't reading anything into your answer. Those were real questions. Thanks for your answers.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Exactly...

The inverse is also true. Just because the instructor has mixed it up wearing blue or a salad suit does not mean that he or she is a teacher.

Napoleon, "my mule has twenty years at war, pulling my kitchen wagon, but he is still a mule."

One factor is not controlling. It is a totality of the circumstances test. Got to have the right mix of warrior, student, teacher, patience, inter alia.

I don't think one should close his eyes to anyone who does not have military combat or police experience. I definitely believe what Confucius taught, "if I see three people walking down the street, one is my teacher."

However, I still think it depends on what is being taught.

We have instructors aplenty. Our gun culture has very few teachers, people who want you to learn, want you to think and truly care that you do learn.

 

[BigGuyinMuncie]

Took 2 classes, 1 in Tennessee that we had to have for our carry permit, and 1 when I worked security about 12 years ago in Indiana. Both were informative but taught about the same as my step dad did when I was a kid learning to shoot.

 

[BigGuyinMuncie]

Did have to take a hunters education course at the age of 24. Would not have been embarrassing had I not been the only adult in the room. Most of the kids were about 9. I never hunted as a kid, what can I say.

 

[ATM]

I definitely believe what Confucius taught...

The Chinese are very wise.