Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?

[phylodog]

Oh no, I get it. And you don't seem to get that there are still options for homes without an HOA. Maybe not as many as most are being built within HOAs, but we've hashed that out.

Certainly not to anyone's satisfaction but yours and Mike's.

Yet another irrelevant claim brought back into the argument. The younger generation (best this country has ever had to offer, eh?) like it so it must be good. They also eat Tide Pods and cut off their genitalia in hopes of attaining permanent victim status so you'll have to forgive the rest of us if we don't rely on the preference of the younger generations for a litmus test. As we're seeing in this thread, they lack both the education to understand what they're giving away to cheaply.

 

[repeter1977]

So have most in this thread - or they've never even lived in one. @repeter1977 I think that's you? You've just heard bad stories but never lived in one?

Anyways @foszoe it's a hypothetical. And I'll laugh my butt off if it happens!

Plenty of secondhand stories plus everything else in the news. Plus @Ingomike making sure no one ever wants to live in one.

 

[Ingomike]

Certainly not to anyone's satisfaction but yours and Mike's.

Yet another irrelevant claim brought back into the argument. The younger generation (best this country has ever had to offer, eh?) like it so it must be good. They also eat Tide Pods and cut off their genitalia in hopes of attaining permanent victim status so you'll have to forgive the rest of us if we don't rely on the preference of the younger generations for a litmus test. As we're seeing in this thread, they lack both the education to understand what they're giving away to cheaply.

Would you have appreciated being painted with such a broad brush when you were younger? I’m sure the folks your current age when you were young thought similar of your generation. What generation is teaching them to cut off their genitalia?

 

[firecadet613]

Certainly not to anyone's satisfaction but yours and Mike's.

Yet another irrelevant claim brought back into the argument. The younger generation (best this country has ever had to offer, eh?) like it so it must be good. They also eat Tide Pods and cut off their genitalia in hopes of attaining permanent victim status so you'll have to forgive the rest of us if we don't rely on the preference of the younger generations for a litmus test. As we're seeing in this thread, they lack both the education to understand what they're giving away to cheaply.

I had zero issues finding a home or even a vacation home. I know people looking for a non HOA home now and they are finding a bunch on the market (not in Marion county, but thankfully they've wise up and are moving out).

I'll call BS on your statement. Those in the "Younger Generation" who want to live in the HOAs likely are college educated, making 6 figures with a couple of kids. They're far from dumb or the "tide pod kids" you see in the news. If someone is spending their hard earned cash on a nice home on a quarter acre lot, why are you against them agreeing with their neighbors not to park RVs there? No one is forcing them to live there!

You keep mentioning them giving away stuff. What are they giving away? I'll assume you mean property rights, but you can't give away what you never had. If someone wants those rights bad enough - negotiate for them!

It's becoming pretty clear the HOA neighborhoods we've been discussing are on different ends of the spectrum (hell, my HOA experience was VASTLY differently than yours)...

Plenty of secondhand stories plus everything else in the news. Plus @Ingomike making sure no one ever wants to live in one.

I must not watch the right channels. I rarely see HOA type stories in the news. It's a good thing you're not forced to live in a HOA. Here's hoping your neighbor never puts a derelict trailer with a couple of junk cars on the small lot next to you...

I'll say again for those in the back, my experience was good (as are the vast majority of folks).

Now that I no longer live in a HOA (and likely never will again) I could care less.

But HOAs sure are quite the chip on your shoulder, especially if you've never experienced one first hand...

 

[actaeon277]

Thread title: "Why Do So Many On INGO Hate HOA's?"
Asked and answered. /THREAD

This reminds me of the newbie INGO member that comes in asking for opinions about the new gun he just bought, and when he doesn't like the opinions, he gets belligerent about defending it.

yup

 

[smokingman]

Back in 2019.

HOA legal abuse runs amuck in Indiana

Independent American Communities Consumer Education for Homebuyers, Home, and Property Owners | Exposing Condo & HOA Dysfunction, Corruption, & Abuse | homeowners association, condominium, cooperative housing, affordable housing, housing consumer protection, news, HOA legislation, HOA case law...

independentamericancommunities.com

"An estimated 970,000 people in Indiana live 4,800 community association, paying $1.3 billion(for an average of 3-5% increase in price vs non HOA homes in the same area) a year to maintain those neighborhoods, according to the Community Associations Institute(what law firm lobbies for this association hmm?). (1.3B in 2019...bet it is well over 2 billion a year in Indiana alone in 2024).

The solution lies in gradually removing the oppressive fourth layer of government — the HOA."

That is what a HOA is, another layer of government with their own legal tax levy. If you think corruption is bad in actual government you know nothing about HOA's. How many HOA's use the same law firm(Thrasher Bushmann & Voelkel), do you understand why that is, and who they lobby for? I believe in Indiana that single firm represents over 90% of all HOA's. How many use the exact same companies for landscaping, without ever even asking for another bid? I want less government and less taxes...the opposite of living in an HOA. You can call it a fee, but make no mistake a HOA can take your house for a missed fee payment even easier than the county tax office for a missed tax payment(and have).

Call 6: Carmel homeowner out $45K after HOA sues over wine truck in driveway

Thousands of Indiana homeowners facing lawsuits

www.wrtv.com

 

[jamil]

So...if you hate HOAs...don't buy in a neighborhood with an HOA.

There that was easy...

It's hard to make that choice as most of the neighborhoods developed over the past 30 years have HOA requirements. Saying, well just choose not to, or, don't buy a house then, is a copout. It's an easy button way to dismiss the concerns of the people you disagree with.

So how about we at least make the number of homes available in neighborhoods, proportional to the market? How about 60% of new neighborhoods don't have HOA's. And I'll even give you the people who say they don't care. Plus you get the 14% of the population who just hate freedom. Like Mike.

 

[phylodog]

I had zero issues finding a home or even a vacation home. I know people looking for a non HOA home now and they are finding a bunch on the market (not in Marion county, but thankfully they've wise up and are moving out).

You've made it clear that you are perfectly content making a conclusion based on one experience.

I'll call BS on your statement. Those in the "Younger Generation" who want to live in the HOAs likely are college educated, making 6 figures with a couple of kids. They're far from dumb or the "tide pod kids" you see in the news. If someone is spending their hard earned cash on a nice home on a quarter acre lot, why are you against them agreeing with their neighbors not to park RVs there? No one is forcing them to live there!

You may be impressed by the term "college educated", I am not. There was a time when that actually meant that someone possessed a certain level of intelligence, commitment, work ethic and maturity. If you haven't noticed, none of those are even encouraged in colleges these days and a degree means nothing other than someone spent a lot of money and may or may not obtained something of value in return.

You keep mentioning them giving away stuff. What are they giving away? I'll assume you mean property rights, but you can't give away what you never had. If someone wants those rights bad enough - negotiate for them!

Shoe me an HOA agreement with an opt out option. That would be a choice.

It's becoming pretty clear the HOA neighborhoods we've been discussing are on different ends of the spectrum (hell, my HOA experience was VASTLY differently than yours)...

Again, your example of one is sufficient for you.

I must not watch the right channels. I rarely see HOA type stories in the news. It's a good thing you're not forced to live in a HOA. Here's hoping your neighbor never puts a derelict trailer with a couple of junk cars on the small lot next to you...

I'm capable of resolving difference with neighbors whenever possible and accepting that I have no authority over others or their property. I learned that way back when I was probably 3 or 4.

I'll say again for those in the back, my experience was good (as are the vast majority of folks).

When was the last time you spoke with the vast majority of folks? Please provide some evidence to back up your claim.

 

[jamil]

Or you find out how to thrive in the current environment.

So. Yer saying. If you lived in mid to late 18th century you'd be a Tory. Oh, just figure out how to thrive with the tax on tea. Or, in contrast, maybe when you think things suck, you want to change them for the better. I think I mentioned a while back about a neighborhood not far from me where the developer kinda went belly up and abandoned it, along with the association.

That was, I dunno, maybe 10-15 years ago. It's doing fine without. I see that a few people have even put up pole barns. Good for them. Out here, doing what you want with your property is more desirable than living in an association. And when I drive by it, looks like people are mowing their lawns and keeping up maintenance on their homes. Common areas seem to be getting mowed regularly.

But. Uh oh! Here's a problem! I have no idea what the name of the neighborhood is. It doesn't have a sign.

In my humble estimation, homes in nice HOA neighborhoods will continue to be desirable to the younger generation.

Yes. I don't doubt that. Narcissists tend to like to control other people. A generation indoctrinated into compliance want other people to comply. So I suspect as the last generations to value personal liberty over safety die off, the demand for HOA's will increase.

 

[phylodog]

Would you have appreciated being painted with such a broad brush when you were younger? I’m sure the folks your current age when you were young thought similar of your generation. What generation is teaching them to cut off their genitalia?

I was painted with a broad brush just like ever generation is, has been and will continue to be. It is my right as an old man to call out the idiocy. I know you younger generations don't like hurty words, especially if they're true but my generation doesn't apologize for speaking the truth.

 

[jamil]

I had zero issues finding a home or even a vacation home. I know people looking for a non HOA home now and they are finding a bunch on the market (not in Marion county, but thankfully they've wise up and are moving out).

If you're looking for a starter home you're likely not going to find much without an HOA. I had no problem finding a home without an HOA because I could afford to buy a few acres and build a custom home. Usually when people start out adult life and are ready to own a home, they typically have two choices. Buy older home in the city, if they can find one that's not in a **** hole, or they buy a newer home or build in the suburbs. Choices are quite limited there. You're hard pressed to find one without an HOA.

I'll call BS on your statement. Those in the "Younger Generation" who want to live in the HOAs likely are college educated, making 6 figures with a couple of kids. [Democrats].

FIFY

 

[jamil]

Would you have appreciated being painted with such a broad brush when you were younger?

People earn their reputations. What did we call the generation of WWI soldiers? The greatest. Were they all greatest? No, but they did earn their reputation by what countless brave and selfless people did.

My generation, the Boomers, are an odd mix. They didn't name us after what we did. They named us after what the greatest generation did. After the war they got married, ****ed, and made too many babies.

What did my generation do? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What did Millennials do? Well, I don't want to spoil the line I'll use later, so I'll just say, as far as I can tell, they changed a bunch of words and made up new ones. They started ****ing for the hell of it without the purpose of making babies.

What will Zoomers do? Well, as mentioned, they are the tide pod eating generation. They're the generation of the entitled. The generation of the sheltered. The generation that will need HOA's if they ever decide to leave the security of the urban apartment. Except there is some hope. Counter culture is conservative.

I’m sure the folks your current age when you were young thought similar of your generation. What generation is teaching them to cut off their genitalia?

Millennials.

 

[foszoe]

Even an indentured servant could one day obtain freedom from his oppressors

 

[Ingomike]

Back in 2019.

HOA legal abuse runs amuck in Indiana

Independent American Communities Consumer Education for Homebuyers, Home, and Property Owners | Exposing Condo & HOA Dysfunction, Corruption, & Abuse | homeowners association, condominium, cooperative housing, affordable housing, housing consumer protection, news, HOA legislation, HOA case law...

independentamericancommunities.com

Deborah Goonan thanks you for all the clicks you have generated to her clickbait site. Nice work on her part, she can get disgruntled people that are mad at their HOA to click all over her blog and she gets paid and from the looks of it she doesn’t have to do that much work, it just keeps giving.

"An estimated 970,000 people in Indiana live 4,800 community association, paying $1.3 billion(for an average of 3-5% increase in price vs non HOA homes in the same area) a year to maintain those neighborhoods, according to the Community Associations Institute(what law firm lobbies for this association hmm?). (1.3B in 2019...bet it is well over 2 billion a year in Indiana alone in 2024).

The solution lies in gradually removing the oppressive fourth layer of government — the HOA."

That is what a HOA is, another layer of government with their own legal tax levy. If you think corruption is bad in actual government you know nothing about HOA's. How many HOA's use the same law firm(Thrasher Bushmann & Voelkel), do you understand why that is, and who they lobby for? I believe in Indiana that single firm represents over 90% of all HOA's. How many use the exact same companies for landscaping, without ever even asking for another bid? I want less government and less taxes...the opposite of living in an HOA. You can call it a fee, but make no mistake a HOA can take your house for a missed fee payment even easier than the county tax office for a missed tax payment(and have).

Call 6: Carmel homeowner out $45K after HOA sues over wine truck in driveway

Thousands of Indiana homeowners facing lawsuits

www.wrtv.com

Some of the complaints from those sued by the HOA are downright funny. First the Carmel story, I guarantee that she was given notices that she either said f*** em I’ll not respond and do what I want or she outright told them to f*** off. They cannot win in court if the association did not follow protocol.

She probably did not ever read the covenants, restrictions, and HOA docs and had no idea what was was doing could go this far, she thought she could ignore what she agreed to and do what she wanted without consequence.

The guy in Noblesville probably was much the same, he admitted he gets tons of mail, but knows for certain he didn’t get the original bill for dues. Then when he got a follow up with late fees he said f*** em, I’m not paying that, and the fight was on. The reason both are in the news was they were losing, because they reneged on their agreement, and desperately were trying to use public opinion to shift things.

Actually the fact the most HOA issues are handled by the same law firm likely means that there is not enough business for several firms to be expert in that field. I’ll digress with an analogy story, a friend was buying land in the country he called four different survey companies the bids were from $2300 to over $8000. He asked the low bidder why he was so much lower, and was told, we just surveyed a property very near yours, we have the work over half done.

It does not confirm any corruption on the part of the HOA’s or the law firm if they are experts that can handle it most effectively, just as the survey company had expertise in that specific property. People seem to think lawyers are lawyers without regard for specialties, somewhat like doctors. Good lawyers will tell you when they are not in their expertise and while they can gain that expertise do you want it on your dime? I don’t.

If your HOA is not getting regular bids and the board reviewing those bids your board is failing in their oversight duties. The bigger the neighborhood the bigger the job. Again, many of landscaping companies have built their business to specialize in HOA’s, just as others specialize in commercial, while others typically just do individual yards.

It is no surprise that those that specialize in HOA’s and are equipped for the scale win the bids. Those little companies might take days to do a big HOA whereas the big guys pull in and knock out in a day, the residents are happier because the peace of the neighborhood is only disrupted for one day, not three.

 

[phylodog]

Yeah, **** all the hundreds of thousands of Hoosiers who know HOAs suck. lol

 

[Dean C.]

If you're looking for a starter home you're likely not going to find much without an HOA. I had no problem finding a home without an HOA because I could afford to buy a few acres and build a custom home. Usually when people start out adult life and are ready to own a home, they typically have two choices. Buy older home in the city, if they can find one that's not in a **** hole, or they buy a newer home or build in the suburbs. Choices are quite limited there. You're hard pressed to find one without an HOA.


FIFY

Anyone who can first time responsibility buy in this market is winning in my book, May 2024 average Indiana sale price $235,500~ at 7.39% which is very close to $2000 a month in mortgage depending on how you did the down payment. The wife mentioned getting a bigger yard in the future, with her location requirements she refuses to accept that would be a 500K house easy . Just getting a house is hard, much less having to deal with bad neighbors. So far my HOA experience has been just fine, the lawyers have been contacted apparently so we will wait and see some more.

 

[firecadet613]

It's hard to make that choice as most of the neighborhoods developed over the past 30 years have HOA requirements. Saying, well just choose not to, or, don't buy a house then, is a copout. It's an easy button way to dismiss the concerns of the people you disagree with.

We've established that and the reasoning behind it. If you have the capital, create a new subdivision without HOAs. I've had zero issues finding a place without a HOA as have others.

So how about we at least make the number of homes available in neighborhoods, proportional to the market? How about 60% of new neighborhoods don't have HOA's. And I'll even give you the people who say they don't care. Plus you get the 14% of the population who just hate freedom. Like Mike.

Sure, do as you wish. I'm speaking in real terms, not what I'd like to see. Sometimes you need to buckle up your bootstraps and do things you're not a major fan of, to get to the other side...

You've made it clear that you are perfectly content making a conclusion based on one experience.

What conclusion? That you have a choice to buy in an HOA or not? Some HOAs suck? Sure, they do, hell, I'm sure some in rural America have crappy neighbors as well....

You may be impressed by the term "college educated", I am not. There was a time when that actually meant that someone possessed a certain level of intelligence, commitment, work ethic and maturity. If you haven't noticed, none of those are even encouraged in colleges these days and a degree means nothing other than someone spent a lot of money and may or may not obtained something of value in return.

Nope, I'm not in the least impressed - I don't have a degree...just stating that MOST I know in that demographic want the HOA style neighborhood and MOST I know in that demographic are college educated. The ones that aren't, want a few acres in the country with an older home...

Shoe me an HOA agreement with an opt out option. That would be a choice.

Is that a fair choice for those that signed and agreed to live there, abiding by the by laws? IMO it is not, if some can opt out while others want to stay in.

Again, your example of one is sufficient for you.

I'm capable of resolving difference with neighbors whenever possible and accepting that I have no authority over others or their property. I learned that way back when I was probably 3 or 4.

Most who can do this are the exception, not the rule. I was listening to Mike Rowe interview Gavin De Becker while I was in the car earlier and they discussed how for most people, the answer is to call the police vs knock on their neighbors door, asking them to turn the music down. Hell - see how that turned out in Indy recently with that shooting when someone went to talk to their neighbors!?

When was the last time you spoke with the vast majority of folks? Please provide some evidence to back up your claim.

I have over 30 cousins - the majority went to college and went the HOA home route...

You're older and retired, do you have kids? Do they live in a HOA?

I was painted with a broad brush just like ever generation is, has been and will continue to be. It is my right as an old man to call out the idiocy. I know you younger generations don't like hurty words, especially if they're true but my generation doesn't apologize for speaking the truth.

No reason to apologize, my son (who's a young adult) is not like many in his age range...the majority of young adults these days who have trouble adulting is scary...

If you're looking for a starter home you're likely not going to find much without an HOA. I had no problem finding a home without an HOA because I could afford to buy a few acres and build a custom home. Usually when people start out adult life and are ready to own a home, they typically have two choices. Buy older home in the city, if they can find one that's not in a **** hole, or they buy a newer home or build in the suburbs. Choices are quite limited there. You're hard pressed to find one without an HOA.

I agree and I've said this up the thread. When you're starting out, your options are LIMITED as they should be. You can't afford what your parents have right when you're starting out...

Your options today in many suburbs/cities are newer home with HOA or older home without. I went newer with HOA, now I have newer and 15ac...

Anyone who can first time responsibility buy in this market is winning in my book, May 2024 average Indiana sale price $235,500~ at 7.39% which is very close to $2000 a month in mortgage depending on how you did the down payment. The wife mentioned getting a bigger yard in the future, with her location requirements she refuses to accept that would be a 500K house easy . Just getting a house is hard, much less having to deal with bad neighbors. So far my HOA experience has been just fine, the lawyers have been contacted apparently so we will wait and see some more.

I feel for those just starting out today, the deck is stacked against them!. Hats off to you and your wife!

My first home was 20ish years ago, I paid 95k and I was making 30k/yr at that time...

 

[foszoe]

We've established that and the reasoning behind it. If you have the capital, create a new subdivision without HOAs. I've had zero issues finding a place without a HOA as have others.

Sure, do as you wish. I'm speaking in real terms, not what I'd like to see. Sometimes you need to buckle up your bootstraps and do things you're not a major fan of, to get to the other side...

What conclusion? That you have a choice to buy in an HOA or not? Some HOAs suck? Sure, they do, hell, I'm sure some in rural America have crappy neighbors as well....

Nope, I'm not in the least impressed - I don't have a degree...just stating that MOST I know in that demographic want the HOA style neighborhood and MOST I know in that demographic are college educated. The ones that aren't, want a few acres in the country with an older home...

Is that a fair choice for those that signed and agreed to live there, abiding by the by laws? IMO it is not, if some can opt out while others want to stay in.

Most who can do this are the exception, not the rule. I was listening to Mike Rowe interview Gavin De Becker while I was in the car earlier and they discussed how for most people, the answer is to call the police vs knock on their neighbors door, asking them to turn the music down. Hell - see how that turned out in Indy recently with that shooting when someone went to talk to their neighbors!?

I have over 30 cousins - the majority went to college and went the HOA home route...

You're older and retired, do you have kids? Do they live in a HOA?

No reason to apologize, my son (who's a young adult) is not like many in his age range...the majority of young adults these days who have trouble adulting is scary...

I agree and I've said this up the thread. When you're starting out, your options are LIMITED as they should be. You can't afford what your parents have right when you're starting out...

Your options today in many suburbs/cities are newer home with HOA or older home without. I went newer with HOA, now I have newer and 15ac...

I feel for those just starting out today, the deck is stacked against them!. Hats off to you and your wife!

My first home was 20ish years ago, I paid 95k and I was making 30k/yr at that time...

It's not fair trying to get one whole page in a single post.

 

[firecadet613]

I thought we were, most of us, men of our word, our handshake is our bond. If one does not like the terms of a particular HOA or any HOA they are free to buy a home where they do like the covenants or a property without any covenants. There are certainly documented cases where an HOA overstepped its covenants but so have most human ran entities, and is not that common.

For those that hate HOA's do you like junkyard neighbors? Cars on blocks? Yards not mowed? Houses in visible disrepair? I saw a INGO classified promoting how if you bought his off road vehicle you could tick off the the HOA. LOL! Same guy would likely trash someone that said they would like to look at it but no showed, going back on their word, but going back on your word with your neighbors is soo funny.

It is not a dictator telling you what to do with your property, like many believe it is. It is a contract as to how neighbors will live together. If you want to park an RV or boat in your drive, buy a home that either has no covenants (the contract of how neighbors will live together legally recorded with the deeds) or an agreement that allows for what you want to do. If you buy with no covenants your neighbors can literally do anything the local government does not enforce.

A friend had a nice house near 25th and post, once an upper middle class neighborhood, guy behind him paved the entire backyard and began running a small 4 wrecker towing service from there. Diesel trucks running all night in the winter 20-50 feet from neighbors trying to sleep. Neighbors tried to stop it but city didn't care and they had no covenants to enforce.

The smaller the lots the greater the need for an HOA to stop the human idiocy at close range. A very important function is many HOA's are updating their covenants to limit or stop home rentals in the neighborhood. This is due to the literally trillions of dollars turning entire neighborhoods into rental complexes.

Complaining about an HOA, in most cases, is just showing ones self to have not understood what they agreed to live by when they bought or that their needs have changed and they think the agreement should be changed to accommodate them.

An HOA and covenants are an agreement the owner agreed to when they bought the land, no more no less. Please understand the agreement you are making before buying the house and everyone will be happier.

Most on INGO hate HOAs. Most on INGO want their handshake bond to be honored but say F the contract I signed.

Very few on INGO can find the value of HOAs and that's alright.

I'm out of this thread unless I'm baited back in.

Drinks on me tonight, fellas!

 

[firecadet613]

It's not fair trying to get one whole page in a single post.

Ha! It was a busy day and I was on INGO but purposely did not click on this thread until I got home and all caught up.