Why do "smart" people point guns at themselves?

[bwframe]

"Rule 1: All guns are always loaded."
All I can do is shake my head. A gun is nothing more than another tool...

...Stay behind the desk and let the professionals handle the firearms.

[video=youtube_share;AxWWJaTEdD0]http://youtu.be/AxWWJaTEdD0[/video]

 

[Armed-in-Carmel]

A gun is always pointed "somewhere", so I stay ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of it's condition and check its condition AGAIN every time I touch the firearm, even if I just handled it 30 seconds before. No ammo in the room, bolt open, slide locked back, cylinder out... anything I can do to make sure there is nothing in the chamber. Then, if I'm doing dry fire exercises, I'm VEWY, VEWY CAREFUL.

 

[Jackson]

I'm the only one in this room, that I know of, professional enough....

 

[Kirk Freeman]

But according to the rules even a gun that has been cleared and properly checked is still loaded

This is incorrect.

Like most things on INGO, the confusion stems from a misunderstanding of the rules.

How do you get around that rule?

Get around what rule? You don't "get around" them, you simply follow them to ensure that you do not hurt yourself or others.

You aren't answering the question as asked.

What is your question? Restate it and I can address it for you.

There is no good answer for you, answer one way and it proves that the approach of "All guns are loaded" is a fallacy that cannot always be upheld, answer that you can make exceptions for certain reasons and your argument fails because you and Burl have been touting that there are no exceptions...

Who is telling you this? Is this some corruption of Cooper's rules that you heard at a gun shop by someone who has no formal instruction?

Seems to me that all the running around the conference table can be stopped by people sitting down and studying.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

"Rule 1: All guns are always loaded."

All I can do is shake my head. A gun is nothing more than another tool. I suppose with this mentality, all engines are always started, all electricity is always live, all water is always running, all stoves/heaters are always hot, all hydraulic hoses are always pressurized.

Stay behind the desk and let the professionals handle the firearms.

Yes, it is tool and just like an engine, electricity or water, you behave in certain ways to prevent injury to yourself or others.

Who do you think codified these rules? It was a firearms professional.

They were not designed to ruin anyone's fun but to prevent poor behavior in handling or fighting with firearms, not everyone has a badge or ACU uniform which gives great civil immunity. Most of us here don't have either.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Well l kirk, you gave me no real answer either and that disappoints me.

What is your question, snow. Please re-state it and I will gladly answer it for you.

 

[hopper68]

"Rule 1: All guns are always loaded."

All I can do is shake my head. A gun is nothing more than another tool. I suppose with this mentality, all engines are always started, all electricity is always live, all water is always running, all stoves/heaters are always hot, all hydraulic hoses are always pressurized.



Stay behind the desk and let the professionals handle the firearms.

If you buy a new alternator belt for your vehicle there is a warning to not change it while the engine is running.

Ask the INGO electricians if they trust anybody but themselves to kill the power.

I make no apologies for being safe.

 

[snowwalker]

Kirk, see post #69 and then your answer at #83 on checking the timing of a revolver. Looking for a sound answer this time.

 

[Cemetery-man]

Stay behind the desk and let the professionals handle the firearms.

I wish I had a dollar for every time I see the "pros" behind the gun counter at the LGS or the potential buyer accidentally sweep the store during a sales pitch. If you want to get critical, then every one of those handguns laying in the case is pointed at someone. It's just something that can't be avoided 100% of the time even by your so called professionals.

 

[Kirk Freeman]

How do you visually check the timing of a revolver without breaking rule 1? steve, bw kirk how do you do it? I really want an answer to this one, really more IF you can answer this one. I look forward to your answers!
​

I have answered this, but I can do it again for my fellow INGOer. This time with more detail.

You pick up the revolver, you unload or ensure that the revolver is unloaded by sight and by touch, do that again, check the timing by following 2 and 4 (this is why Clint Smith, e.g., now advocates "Treat" as a prefix to Rule #1), if you want to dry fire it or roll check it, I recommend a sand barrel for Rule #4.

As soon as the revolver leaves your hand, it is now "loaded". If you want to pick it up again, you check, multiple times, to ensure that it is unloaded again. Remember, the gun fairy loves to load guns when no one is looking.

Even though it is unloaded, it is a good idea to follow Rule #2 and Rule #4 in dry practice or maintenance.

 

[bwframe]

...(this is why Clint Smith, e.g., now advocates "Treat" as a prefix to Rule #1)...

The majority of folks already understood this from the beginning.
Some can't get it, some just won't.

 

[SteveM4A1]

The majority of folks already understood this from the beginning.
Some can't get it, some just won't.

But if you are following rules 2-4, aren't you already treating every firearm as if it is loaded?

 

[Kirk Freeman]

The majority of folks already understood this from the beginning.
Some can't get it, some just won't.

Remember, in the beginning at API in the '70s there was originally just one rule, "All guns are always loaded".

The problem was that people did not know what to do with a firearm. Muzzles went everywhere. Fingers were on triggers, etc.

Cooper then codified three more to give discipline and order (what I should do with the gun).

The first rule is the statement of purpose, like in the statement of purpose of the First or Second Amendment. The other three reinforce the statement of purpose that guns are remote control drills.

Everyone gets their hair on fire and runs around the conference table over dogmatic misunderstanding of the Four Rules. Maybe that is because they have never heard Jeff Cooper lecture on them. Heck, what percentage of INGO's median age knows who Jeff Cooper is.

But if you are following rules 2-4, aren't you already treating every firearm as if it is loaded?

There you go, you get it.

 

[rvb]

Remember, in the beginning at API in the '70s there was originally just one rule, "All guns are always loaded".

The problem was that people did not know what to do with a firearm. Muzzles went everywhere. Fingers were on triggers, etc.

Cooper then codified three more to give discipline and order (what I should do with the gun).

The first rule is the statement of purpose, like in the statement of purpose of the First or Second Amendment. The other three reinforce the statement of purpose that guns are remote control drills.

Everyone gets their hair on fire and runs around the conference table over dogmatic misunderstanding of the Four Rules.

I've always found rather than one of the rules being "[treat as if] all guns are always loaded" it is easier to explain to newbs by saying "the following rules always apply, even w/ an unloaded gun....." I know it's not the official NRA/Cooper works, but it avoids these back and forths over what you mean by "it's always loaded."

-rvb

 

[Kirk Freeman]

but it avoids these back and forths over what you mean by "it's always loaded."

You bet, I have seen feckless argumentation for the sake of argumentation "Eet t'ain't low-dead" played out so many times that I always teach "Treat". It resolves this issue for those that get all hung up on a dogmatic "always loaded" without having any clue of Cooper's caveat.

 

[ATM]

I've always found rather than one of the rules being "[treat as if] all guns are always loaded" it is easier to explain to newbs by saying "the following rules always apply, even w/ an unloaded gun....." I know it's not the official NRA/Cooper works, but it avoids these back and forths over what you mean by "it's always loaded."

-rvb

Good to hear, this is what I do as well. By removing loaded/unloaded status from the list, all that remain are sensible safe gun handling rules.

For those who still need a mantra to recite, I recommend "treat all guns as if they were guns" - but I wouldn't attempt to include or classify that as a rule with the other 3.

 

[snowwalker]

Thanks Kirk. As I stated earlier there are few absolutes in real life, I am just not as elegant in explaining things as Kirk.

 

[indiucky]

I am just not as elegant in explaining things as Kirk.

He should start doing law for real...Someone told me he "practices law" but I done figgered he has gotten good enough where he could start doing it for real now rather than just practicing....

 

[CountryBoy19]

I have answered this, but I can do it again for my fellow INGOer. This time with more detail.

You pick up the revolver, you unload or ensure that the revolver is unloaded by sight and by touch, do that again, check the timing by following 2 and 4 (this is why Clint Smith, e.g., now advocates "Treat" as a prefix to Rule #1), if you want to dry fire it or roll check it, I recommend a sand barrel for Rule #4.

As soon as the revolver leaves your hand, it is now "loaded". If you want to pick it up again, you check, multiple times, to ensure that it is unloaded again. Remember, the gun fairy loves to load guns when no one is looking.

Even though it is unloaded, it is a good idea to follow Rule #2 and Rule #4 in dry practice or maintenance.

I think we can all agree on this... except bwframe...


Looks like Burl lost the last best chance he had at "winning" this one... even Kirk Freeman, the safety Nazi disagrees with him...

 

[Kirk Freeman]

Looks like Burl lost the last best chance he had at "winning" this one... even Kirk Freeman, the safety Nazi disagrees with him...

I really don't understand what the shouting is about. I know most of it is to rationalize sloppy behaviour or people who do not want to think that their behaviour endangered anyone.

Only things infinite are the universe and the capacity of man to rationalize.

I guess people get confused/hung up over reconciling the "all guns are loaded" and the "not loaded" reality.

Cooper said "all guns are loaded" and then always included guns in your hands as an exception. The teeth talk about "t'ain't low-dead" is why people like Cooper's ramrod, Clint Smith, went with "Treat all guns as if they are always loaded". People always want to question daddy. Daddy is so wrong, I hate him and why won't he fix the car faster?

When I was a kid, I remember this manifesting with my brother. My father was getting ready to clean a rifle in the living room chair and my brother walked over and stuck his face over the muzzle, just being a kid.

My father repeated Rule #1 "all guns are always loaded"; my brother argued for what seemed like 10 minutes insisting that "t'ain't low-dead". Perhaps we never progress beyond childhood.

There is no question the Four Rules are great teachers. They have a very long history and have been used to instruct tons of people in handling firearms.

The problem when you abolish "all guns are always loaded" with "t'ain't low-dead" you rationalize bad behaviour. "Shut up, Jethro, t'ain't low-dead, I ken swing it around all I wants to."