Who was the best president?

The #1 community for Gun Owners in Indiana

Member Benefits:

  • Fewer Ads!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • E5RANGER375

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Feb 22, 2010
    11,507
    38
    BOATS n' HO's, Indy East
    What makes you say that? What particular part of that statement is not true? I happen to be a professional Civil War historian and can document all of these points.

    it wasnt the goal of the south to go to war over slavery.

    Im in the process of digging out a book that has some historical fact in it to back up the fact that the south was going to free slaves way before the north even considered it. also, no offense but if your just a reenactor that doesnt make you a professional historian. the folks who print the history books that lie are "professionals" too.
     

    spencer rifle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    70   0   0
    Apr 15, 2011
    6,817
    149
    Scrounging brass
    it wasnt the goal of the south to go to war over slavery.

    Im in the process of digging out a book that has some historical fact in it to back up the fact that the south was going to free slaves way before the north even considered it. also, no offense but if your just a reenactor that doesnt make you a professional historian. the folks who print the history books that lie are "professionals" too.
    The fact that I get paid to give historical presentations makes me a professional. The North did not go to war to defeat slavery, but the South started a war to preserve it. No matter what your book written way after tha fact may say, the Articles of Secession tell exactly what they were thinking then. Anything else is later revisionism.
     

    E5RANGER375

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Feb 22, 2010
    11,507
    38
    BOATS n' HO's, Indy East
    The fact that I get paid to give historical presentation makes me a professional. The North did not go to war to defeat slavery, but the South started a war to preserve it. No matter what your book written way after tha fact may say, the Articles of Secession tell exactly what they were thinking then. Anything else is later revisionism.

    really? I paid a girl for an oral presentation one time, I guess that made her a professional :dunno:

    so you work at conner prairie?

    the book actually sites the articles and also the personal papers of the delegates
     

    PatriotPride

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 18, 2010
    4,195
    36
    Valley Forge, PA
    Mmmm...not so great. Couldn't get his own vice president to cooperate, kept Bragg in charge too long and too often, initiated the first draft in American (?) history, and unsuccessfully tired to build a strong central government for a bunch of states whose whole reason for leaving the old union was a strong central government (that and preserving slavery).

    You're a bit wrong on your history, but I don't hold it against you. Most people don't know much about the true reasons and workings of the Civil War.

    1. So he couldn't get his VP to cooperate---so what? We see that in modern times, and I can't see what difference this makes.

    2. The formation of the Confederacy was not solely due to States desiring to act with complete autonomy. We are a nation of States---The UNITED States. Central government is not a problem, when that central government recognizes the sovereignty of the States. When Federal troops were unConstitutionally sent into Virginia, do you think that Virginians should have just accepted it? HELL no. States wanted the Federal Government to act Constitutionally and recognize States' Rights. They failed to do so, and the States took action, as outlined in the principle documents of the United States. The US is a VOLUNTARY union of STATES which SHOULD retain their sovereignty. We all know what will happen if States attempt to remind the Feds AGAIN that they are acting unConstitutionally :xmad:

    3. As far as keeping Bragg in command---you have to look at both sides of the coin. Lincoln did not put Grant in command until 1864---that bears mentioning. Davis put Lee in command in 1862, approximately 13 months after the beginning of the war.

    4. The first draft in AMERICAN history was instituted officially in 1778, and was attempted again during the War of 1812.

    5. Slavery is little more than a convenient smoke-screen when discussing the Civil War. Yes, it was a horrible institution of the time. No, it was not the cause of the Civil War. Jefferson Davis was working on a plan to end slavery, but when you are running a new country AND defending it from an unlawfully-acting government, the issue of slavery takes a back seat.
     

    PatriotPride

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 18, 2010
    4,195
    36
    Valley Forge, PA
    it wasnt the goal of the south to go to war over slavery.

    Im in the process of digging out a book that has some historical fact in it to back up the fact that the south was going to free slaves way before the north even considered it. also, no offense but if your just a reenactor that doesnt make you a professional historian. the folks who print the history books that lie are "professionals" too.

    Sorry Ranger---I have that book. Let me go dig it out and I'll look that section up. :D
     

    Lex Concord

    Not so well-known member
    Site Supporter
    Rating - 100%
    27   0   0
    Dec 4, 2008
    4,499
    83
    Morgan County
    What makes you say that? What particular part of that statement is not true? I happen to be a professional Civil War historian and can document all of these points. If you don't agree about the slavery part, I suggest you go and read the Articles of Secession for each of the seceeding states. They themselves cited slavery as the driving issue.

    While you may get paid to make presentations and, I'm sure are very passionate in your beliefs, I have to call false advertising here. Most people would expect to see a degree in history (not just a Bachelors in Environmental Interpretation and an MBA, impressive though those might be) in the CV of someone claiming to be a "professional Civil War historian"..

    Sorry, no matter the facts, no matter your stance, no matter your re-enacting experience, if you're not doing the research for those presentations, you're not a professional historian, but a professional presenter. You are not being paid for your history, but the presentation itself.

    :noway:

    Out of curiosity, how does one do naval reenactments in a land-locked area, or do you travel for those?
     

    PatriotPride

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 18, 2010
    4,195
    36
    Valley Forge, PA
    The fact that I get paid to give historical presentations makes me a professional. The North did not go to war to defeat slavery, but the South started a war to preserve it. No matter what your book written way after tha fact may say, the Articles of Secession tell exactly what they were thinking then. Anything else is later revisionism.

    Wrong. The South did not START the war. Furthermore, they were not fighting to preserve the institution of slavery---they were fighting to preserve their RIGHT to choose when and how they ended it. There is a BIG difference.
     

    PatriotPride

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    Feb 18, 2010
    4,195
    36
    Valley Forge, PA
    It's of interest to note that Massachusetts was the first State (a NORTHERN state) to use government force to protect slavery. It's also of interest to note that Virginia (a SOUTHERN state) outlawed slavery on 10/5/1778. When you start researching the history of slavery and the Civil War, a clearer picture emerges of just who was the aggressor and who was not.
     

    spencer rifle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    70   0   0
    Apr 15, 2011
    6,817
    149
    Scrounging brass
    It's of interest to note that Massachusetts was the first State (a NORTHERN state) to use government force to protect slavery. It's also of interest to note that Virginia (a SOUTHERN state) outlawed slavery on 10/5/1778. When you start researching the history of slavery and the Civil War, a clearer picture emerges of just who was the aggressor and who was not.
    Who the aggressor was is who fired the first shot, and whether you count that as Fort Sumter in April or at the Star of the West the January before, it was still the South. And don't give me any garbage about high tariffs or state's rights. Tariffs were lowered before the war started, and the only state's right mentioned in the Articles of Secession was slavery. People can SAY all they want that the south was going to end salvery, but they were always looking for places (Kansas, Missouri) to expand it to. Doesn't sound much like extinction to me. What happened 100 years before (Massachusetts) was not as important to the Civil War as what happened 10 year before (end of Missouri Compromise, bleeding Kansas, fugitive slave laws).
     

    spencer rifle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    70   0   0
    Apr 15, 2011
    6,817
    149
    Scrounging brass
    While you may get paid to make presentations and, I'm sure are very passionate in your beliefs, I have to call false advertising here. Most people would expect to see a degree in history (not just a Bachelors in Environmental Interpretation and an MBA, impressive though those might be) in the CV of someone claiming to be a "professional Civil War historian"..

    Sorry, no matter the facts, no matter your stance, no matter your re-enacting experience, if you're not doing the research for those presentations, you're not a professional historian, but a professional presenter. You are not being paid for your history, but the presentation itself.

    :noway:

    Out of curiosity, how does one do naval reenactments in a land-locked area, or do you travel for those?
    Most of my presentation are inland - Milwaukee, Indiana, Illinois, Tennessee - for which I am well paid. You apparently aren't familiar with the importance of the Mississippi Squadron to the US victory if you think only the coasts were important to the Navy. And I am doing the reaearch for those presentations myself - I go to original sources (such as the Articles of Secession and period internal Navy documents) for my information, not later revisionist writings. My degree is for natural AND historical interpretation. My job is to take obscure or complicated information and make it undrestandable to the general public, and that includes historical information. The peole who attend my presentations don't seem to care about history degrees - they just know the presentation is entertaining and accurate.
     

    spencer rifle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    70   0   0
    Apr 15, 2011
    6,817
    149
    Scrounging brass
    You're a bit wrong on your history, but I don't hold it against you. Most people don't know much about the true reasons and workings of the Civil War.

    1. So he couldn't get his VP to cooperate---so what? We see that in modern times, and I can't see what difference this makes.
    True enough.

    2. The formation of the Confederacy was not solely due to States desiring to act with complete autonomy. We are a nation of States---The UNITED States. Central government is not a problem, when that central government recognizes the sovereignty of the States. When Federal troops were unConstitutionally sent into Virginia, do you think that Virginians should have just accepted it? HELL no. States wanted the Federal Government to act Constitutionally and recognize States' Rights. They failed to do so, and the States took action, as outlined in the principle documents of the United States. The US is a VOLUNTARY union of STATES which SHOULD retain their sovereignty. We all know what will happen if States attempt to remind the Feds AGAIN that they are acting unConstitutionally :xmad:
    And no union exists at all if any state, deciding that it doesn't happen to like a turn of events, just up and leaves. That crisis was already upon the Confederacy, as several southern areas had seceeded from the Confederacy. The nullification crisis already established years before that the Federal government would act to protect the Union. That is the sole reason the North responded to Souther aggression (at first)

    3. As far as keeping Bragg in command---you have to look at both sides of the coin. Lincoln did not put Grant in command until 1864---that bears mentioning. Davis put Lee in command in 1862, approximately 13 months after the beginning of the war.
    The North wanted him first. And Davis put Lee in command only after he lost Johnston.

    4. The first draft in AMERICAN history was instituted officially in 1778, and was attempted again during the War of 1812.
    The Federal government was not empowered to use the draft during the Revolution - it was merely a recommendation to the states. An attempt is not the same as having a draft. The Confederate president Jefferson Davis proposed the first conscription act on March 28, 1862, and the act was passed into law the next month.

    5. Slavery is little more than a convenient smoke-screen when discussing the Civil War. Yes, it was a horrible institution of the time. No, it was not the cause of the Civil War. Jefferson Davis was working on a plan to end slavery, but when you are running a new country AND defending it from an unlawfully-acting government, the issue of slavery takes a back seat.
    The South said it was the cause of the war - that's good enough for me. Revisionism and Lost Cause feelings aside, the facts just don't support your position. If Davis was really working on a plan to end salvery, he would have allowed slaves to serve as soldiers. Didn't happen.
     

    spencer rifle

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 100%
    70   0   0
    Apr 15, 2011
    6,817
    149
    Scrounging brass
    For further reading:
    http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp


    Also:
    Confederate Constitution, Article 1, Section 9
    (4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed.


    Article 4, Section 3
    (3) The Confederate States may acquire new territory; and Congress shall have power to legislate and provide governments for the inhabitants of all territory belonging to the Confederate States, lying without the limits of the several Sates; and may permit them, at such times, and in such manner as it may by law provide, to form States to be admitted into the Confederacy. In all such territory the institution of negro slavery, as it now exists in the Confederate States, shall be recognized and protected be Congress and by the Territorial government; and the inhabitants of the several Confederate States and Territories shall have the right to take to such Territory any slaves lawfully held by them in any of the States or Territories of the Confederate States.


    Sounds like they intended to keep slavery for a long time, considering all the constitutional protections it had.

    Maybe we should start another thread to continue this and not clog up the Presidents thread.
     

    dross

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 27, 2009
    8,699
    48
    Monument, CO
    As I've posted here before, to say that the Civil War wasn't about slavery is as simplistic as saying it was only about slavery.

    As someone pointed out, read what the individual states gave as reasons for secession and it's impossible to deny that the preservation of slavery was a main reason.

    Those of you who say it's about state's rights only, I ask you this. How can the people of a state have a "right" to enslave other human beings?
     

    Garb

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    May 4, 2009
    1,732
    38
    Richmond
    As I've posted here before, to say that the Civil War wasn't about slavery is as simplistic as saying it was only about slavery.

    As someone pointed out, read what the individual states gave as reasons for secession and it's impossible to deny that the preservation of slavery was a main reason.

    Those of you who say it's about state's rights only, I ask you this. How can the people of a state have a "right" to enslave other human beings?

    I agree. The Civil War was a hodge podge of screw ups by members on both sides. In fact, when doing the research, I've found that even the Revolutionary War wasn't as cut and dry as us = good guys and them = bad guys. War is complicated, as are the individuals involved. (I'm not defending King George or bashing the Founding Fathers btw).
     

    dross

    Grandmaster
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Jan 27, 2009
    8,699
    48
    Monument, CO
    I agree. The Civil War was a hodge podge of screw ups by members on both sides. In fact, when doing the research, I've found that even the Revolutionary War wasn't as cut and dry as us = good guys and them = bad guys. War is complicated, as are the individuals involved. (I'm not defending King George or bashing the Founding Fathers btw).

    This is one of my common themes - it's always been this way - just as dirty, just as messy, just as driven by getting elected, and making money, and protecting your own rice bowl.

    It's the game, not the playas.
     

    Garb

    Master
    Rating - 100%
    2   0   0
    May 4, 2009
    1,732
    38
    Richmond
    This is one of my common themes - it's always been this way - just as dirty, just as messy, just as driven by getting elected, and making money, and protecting your own rice bowl.

    It's the game, not the playas.

    Yup. That being said, I still hate most of the playas. lol
     

    Kase

    Shooter
    Rating - 100%
    1   0   0
    May 6, 2010
    1,238
    36
    Crawfordsville
    This thread has officialy been jacked......:hijack: lol. But its very interesting. So keep on bringing on the info. I had no idea about a lot of this, and I even took civil war history in high school :n00b:
     
    Top Bottom