Whats the truth about the 5.56 round?

[XtremeVel]

If I have my history correct, I believe the Russians came out with the 5.45x39 around 1974 ( although we weren't sure until around 1980) primarily because they were in "awe" of what they saw from our so-called .22 cal going 3200 + fps in the late 60's and early 70's. Now, I don't know what all to think about what direction it has gone the last 20-25 years when it went to shorter barrels, heavier bullets, different twists....

 

[Sasquatchhunter]

Does this include the AR-10 which was originally designed for the 7.62 NATO?

I think that would be a lot better than the current weapon. I'm a little ignorant of the AR-10, What are the mag capacities? 30's? 20's?

I'm a little biased against the platform though. I've got an uncle that was in Vietnam, and saw the transition to 16's from M14's. He was a huey medic, so he didn't usually carry a rifle, but I've heard stories about G.I's not being able to lock and load, cause the round would swell in the chamber, only being able to lock and load when fired upon, soldiers being found with cleaning rods down the barrel, etc. He said his unit called it the Mattel 16 cause it looked like a toy gun. After all that, they should have scrapped it in my book. I know they later added the forward charging handle or what have you, but still.

How do the Galil .223 rifles compare to an AR/M16? What about a revamped, modernized version of the AK? Thanks

 

[ChalupaCabras]

One of the big drawbacks to the ammo the military uses in any caliber is that it is a FMJ bullet. Talk to anyone who hunts, they will not pick a FMJ over some type of expanding bullet. It is all political. The expanding bullets do too much damage for the politicians. That said, I agree 100% with the shot placement comment. If you are just going to spray bullets, you better carry a mini gun!

THIS.

The problem with the 5.56 isn't the cartridge or its ballistics; its the design of the projectiles currently in use. The good news is, we civilians actually have an advantage here: we have a LOT of good bullets to choose from.

Winchester, Remington, and Federal all offer loaded ammunition using controlled expansion, medium (CPX2) game bullets for the .223; the 55gr Power Point, Pointed Soft Point, and Bear Claw bullets respectively. These rounds will mushroom at a predicable rate, as opposed to fragmenting explosively like so many other 22 bullets.

If penetration is an issue, there are a plethora of varmint bullets that effectively amount to a "poor mans TAP".

 

[kedie]

I think that would be a lot better than the current weapon. I'm a little ignorant of the AR-10, What are the mag capacities? 30's? 20's?

I'm a little biased against the platform though. I've got an uncle that was in Vietnam, and saw the transition to 16's from M14's. He was a huey medic, so he didn't usually carry a rifle, but I've heard stories about G.I's not being able to lock and load, cause the round would swell in the chamber, only being able to lock and load when fired upon, soldiers being found with cleaning rods down the barrel, etc. He said his unit called it the Mattel 16 cause it looked like a toy gun. After all that, they should have scrapped it in my book. I know they later added the forward charging handle or what have you, but still.

How do the Galil .223 rifles compare to an AR/M16? What about a revamped, modernized version of the AK? Thanks

Most of the problems with the M-16 in Vietnam were born out of poor training on the weapon. Over the years those problems have been mostly corrected. I don't think the problems (if there are any) lie in the platform.

 

[Sasquatchhunter]

good point. Apparently when the gun was introduced it was promoted a "self cleaning" and the troops were told they wouldn need to clean it, werent issued cleaning kits, etc....good ol uncle sam

 

[deanr]

I think that would be a lot better than the current weapon. I'm a little ignorant of the AR-10, What are the mag capacities? 30's? 20's?

I believe that it came with 20 round mags. If the military had not wanted a 5.56mm platform most likely, IMHO, the standard serrvice rifle would have been the AR-10. I think that you can find 30 mags for the civilan versions of the AR-10, though I have not really looked for them.

I carried the M-16A2 and the M-4 while I was an Air Force Security Forces member. In all of the time that I spent at the range I only ever had a few fail to feed issues, a couple of stove pipes and one or two double feeds (the mags were probably 15 years old and only used for training). I liked the M-16A2 much better than the M-4, to me it seemed like the M-16A2 was more accurate. Plus the M-16A2 had the M-4 beat on a point target by 50 meters (550 meters vs. 500 meters).

 

[kedie]

I liked the M-16A2 much better than the M-4.

I was just the opposite. I liked my M-4 a lot more than the M-16A2. Of course the only A2 I ever handled was in basic and it was a POS. After basic it was all M-4s.

 

[Clay]

I think if you got hit with a 5.56 round you would stop what ever you were doing, fall down, and start crying like a baby.

 

[Hoosier8]

Here is a great article on the reliability of the AR platform where a guy continually experiences 2400 rounds without cleaning.

M4a1 for sale - Adams arms piston conversion review - The Big M4 Myth: “Fouling caused by the direct impingement gas system makes the M4 Carbine unreliable.”

Other troops agree about the ammo. The MK262 needs to be handed out. The problem with other platforms is you will only get a minimal upgrade in performance so it may not pay to change platforms.

AA53, Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm Special Ball, Long Range Mk 262 Mod 0

 

[Agan_08]

I've always heard the general shape of the cartridge allows 7.62 rounds to feed more reliably than the 5.56. And it's true, many of the problems associated with the M-16 vanished when soldiers actually began cleaning the rifles. The government should have known better than to claim a rifle was "self-cleaning"

 

[wally05]

Here is a great article on the reliability of the AR platform where a guy continually experiences 2400 rounds without cleaning.

M4a1 for sale - Adams arms piston conversion review - The Big M4 Myth: “Fouling caused by the direct impingement gas system makes the M4 Carbine unreliable.”

Other troops agree about the ammo. The MK262 needs to be handed out. The problem with other platforms is you will only get a minimal upgrade in performance so it may not pay to change platforms.

AA53, Cartridge, Caliber 5.56mm Special Ball, Long Range Mk 262 Mod 0

From an armorer's perspective, his solution does make a lot of sense.

As for the round... i like the 5.56... low recoil, decent range and a lot of ammo you can carry for less weight. Personally, I think in the end, it's the shooter. I love our military, but even our firearms instructor who taught rifle marksmanship and pistol marksmanship for our boys in the Army said that many guys just cannot get the rounds where they need to be in a tense situation.

Is it just me, or do you not hear too much moaning about the rifle and round from the Marines?

 

[38special]

Yes, it's always about shot placement.

No, I wouldn't want to be shot with it. I also wouldn't want to be shot with a .22. Or a .17HMR. or a .25, or .32ACP. But then, I wouldn't use them for defense.

The 5.56 is not a legal deer cartridge, even in states allowing high-powered rifles. I don't believe this is because it's *too* effective. I think there are better choices.

 

[clt46910]

I can tell you from personal experience from Nam, that the round does not punch a clean hole. It does tumble and makes a mess out of a man. The first problems we had with the first guns was the gunpowder used not so much the guns. Yes, they was issued at first without cleaning kits or any instructions. We had to learn from experience. Lots more horror stories from armchair commandos then real life.

Then again, that is just my opinion from my real life experiences.

 

[j706]

As for the majority of the few humans I have seen that were hit with the 5.56x45, they wasn't doing much complaining. Just kinda laying there with that gray look about them. The one that was still alive was hit through laminated automobile glass. He wasn't complaining much but he repeatedly said/whined about how he didn't want anymore of it. He is currently living in a nice state funded condo located at Pendleton Indiana. His lease is up in 2045.

Shot placement is the key. The little pathetic 25ACP will kill you just as dead as a .50 caliber browning if it hits the right stuff.

 

[caddywhompus]

The truth about 5.56 is this: It comes out of the business end of a firearm at a very high velocity and should therefore be respected.

 

[SKSnut]

I think if you got hit with a 5.56 round you would stop what ever you were doing, fall down, and start crying like a baby.

you would do the same thing if shot with a .22lr round, that doesnt make it a good combat round.

 

[Lars]

you would do the same thing if shot with a .22lr round, that doesnt make it a good combat round.

You're right. Although it's pretty safe to say not one single .22lr can be shot with aimed fire at 400 or 500 yards.

It might go that far if you lob it in, but that's not aimed fire.

 

[Zoub]

Hi all,

I have read that the bullet does not always act as anticipated upon impact, frequently just going through and through without too much internal damage.

That is not an issue of caliber but rather bullet selection.

You select the bullet that will transfer most if not ALL of it's Ft/lbs to the target. That selection is based on the physical make up of object you are shooting at the time.

I hunt deer with a .223. I don't use FMJ, I do make one shot kills.

 

[elaw555]

It kills...very well.

 

[Hoosier8]

From an armorer's perspective, his solution does make a lot of sense.

As for the round... i like the 5.56... low recoil, decent range and a lot of ammo you can carry for less weight. Personally, I think in the end, it's the shooter. I love our military, but even our firearms instructor who taught rifle marksmanship and pistol marksmanship for our boys in the Army said that many guys just cannot get the rounds where they need to be in a tense situation.

Is it just me, or do you not hear too much moaning about the rifle and round from the Marines?

One of the problems in Afghanistan that the Army is facing and the Marines aren't is training. I don't know about today but the Army was training their troops to shoot at 300 yards and the Marine training involves different positions and different yardage up to 500 yards. The average firefight in Afghanistan is 500 yards. If you can't hit what you are aiming at, no other rifle or round will make a difference.