A wielded knife is certainly a life endangering scenario. Knife’s can be more dangerous than guns, and this statement shows exactly why. Many people don’t treat them as “deadly weapons” and think less of their ability to take a life. At 21ft, 7 yards, a knife is a seriously deadly threat. I would even go as far as to extend that length a bit. Ever tried to draw having someone run at you from 21ft? I would recommend the exercise with training weapons, i.e., a blue gun and a dummy knife. Try to draw and pull the trigger before the assailant reaches you…..not likely.No, you be the best witness possible and if things get uglier you try to talk him/her down. Your current scenario is not life endangering for anyone.
Any time you are shooting you are using deadly force…regardless if the individual ends up dead or not. Additionally, you shoot to neutralize the threat…which should be expected to be lethal from the beginning. If it turns out he doesn’t die, lucky for him.Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO
Have to ask yourself if you can answer yes to all 3 of these ?'s. If your life is in DANGER.
Ability-Does he have the Ability?
Opportunity-Does he have the Opportunity?
Intent-Does he have the Intent?
A guy holding a knife to the cashier is not an immedate threat to my life, unless he threatens me with the weapon.
Be the best witness you can in this situation!
IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person or the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.
He can't sue you if you wound him, preventing his commission of a forcible felony. At least that's my understanding, after speaking with my lawyer, based on the above. I'm also assuming we're still talking about the same scenario, where the guy pulled a knife on the clerk and demanded the money from the register (a forcible felony if there ever was one). I'm sure there would be at least one witness (the clerk) on your side, and probably several more in a store like Dick's.
OK, if that is the case what would be the difference between a wrongful dealth lawsuit, filed by the family when you shoot and kill them. In the end there is no real winning situation for all.
Draw on him and tell him not to make any sudden movements. Then tell him to drop the knife. Then tell him to get down on the ground. Then tell someone to call the cops. Remove the knife from his reach. Stay drawn on him until police arrive.
If he makes any sudden movements towards someone with the knife, stop the threat.
If he decides to run away reholster, stay on the scene, and call the cops.
I am not going to watch someone get stabbed knowing it was coming and I could have acted to stop it.
Also, you are legally able to protect a third party.
I believe it prevents you from criminal legal liability. The assailant certainly has the ability to file a civil suit….you can file a civil suit for someone looking at you funny. But, IANAL, TINLA, etc.
There isn’t a difference. They can file a civil suit for wrongful death. However…if it is a justified shoot, there should be no problems conveying a convincing argument. Additionally, this is part of the responsibility associated with carrying a handgun. Many people take that responsibility too lightly, and don’t understand that along with the power it brings to protect, comes this responsibility and these potential issues. Carrying is a choice, and one that needs to be thought through in great detail by everyone who chooses to do so.
Have to ask yourself if you can answer yes to all 3 of these ?'s. If your life is in DANGER.
Ability-Does he have the Ability?
Opportunity-Does he have the Opportunity?
Intent-Does he have the Intent?
A guy holding a knife to the cashier is not an immedate threat to my life, unless he threatens me with the weapon.
Be the best witness you can in this situation!
IC 35-41-1-4
"Bodily injury" defined
Sec. 4. "Bodily injury" means any impairment of physical condition, including physical pain.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.5.
IC 35-41-1-11
"Forcible felony" defined
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.
As added by P.L.311-1983, SEC.12.
Thats the difference between your LE training, and a civilian trying to stop an act of violence. after all of your training you mean to tell me that there is no way to disable the advancement of a attacker without shooting to kill, and end the situation? And I did not say that it would be MY choice, I was stating options.
This is what I would wish to do, however like others have said it could easily excite the situation considering nobody's life is currently threatened. I suppose that in a scenario like this your best bet is to read body language as carefully as you can and decide whether or not he's really willing to take the life of the cashier?
Same here, but if a case like this ever made it in front of a jury it may be hard to convince them that the man who pulled a less deadly weapon than you did deserved to die.
uhhhhhhh.....yeah, and then after you are finished paying him $80,000 a year for the rest of his life because a civil lawsuit deemed that your actions prevented him from working for an honest living after your unjust act of vigilanty bravery, you'll wish you would have ended his stay here on earth. i know it horrible to think of, ending someones life, but truthfully simply injuring someone will bring years of crappy legal battles. no criminal charges for your actions but be prepared to get you socks sued off from some scumbag who chose to put his life in harms way. its just the world we live in, remember, he had a bad childhood and thats what pushed him to do his evil deeds, its not his fault.
i don't want to be the guy in the paper shooting someone but if i'm gonna decide to put one in him hes not gonna be giving his side of the story. BTW, i did pose this question, about shooting to kill or shooting to disable, to both a lawyer and prosecutor, they both said it would be advisable to end the threat terminally rather than leave a witness to another give a different side of the story. remember, dead men tell no tales. may we each be blessed so as not to be put in this situation! jeff
A wielded knife is certainly a life endangering scenario. Knife’s can be more dangerous than guns, and this statement shows exactly why. Many people don’t treat them as “deadly weapons” and think less of their ability to take a life. At 21ft, 7 yards, a knife is a seriously deadly threat. I would even go as far as to extend that length a bit. Ever tried to draw having someone run at you from 21ft? I would recommend the exercise with training weapons, i.e., a blue gun and a dummy knife. Try to draw and pull the trigger before the assailant reaches you…..not likely.
This is another exdample of the failure of the most commonly taught technique - stand & deliver. The Tueller Drill was done (from what I remember) by someone just standing there while the "BG" charged at them with a deadly weapon. At 21 feet the BG "won". I'd say that if the BG is moving you also need to be moving. Get the heck off the X. Don't just stand there & try to outdraw him.
I don't think he'd be meeting Jesus.i agree, no shoot. but you better believe i'm taking a tactical position and ole' trusty is ready to make an appearance. i'll gladly watch him leave with the money but the first second he begins to escalate things with the cashier to the point of becoming aggressive with the weapon he will meet JESUS for the first time. i'm covered by forcable felony law and if i drop a BG i won't feel as bad as seeing an innocent person go down in a crime.
I would not stop a robbery but I would draw and fire to stop a murder. I would stay calm and quietly get as close as possible and observe to make sure no other criminals are in their.
You are several feet away from a cash register at, say, a Dicks sporting goods. As you are browsing
Additionally, this is part of the responsibility associated with carrying a handgun. Many people take that responsibility too lightly, and don’t understand that along with the power it brings to protect, comes this responsibility and these potential issues. Carrying is a choice, and one that needs to be thought through in great detail by everyone who chooses to do so.
Shoot myself for browsing the aisles at Dick's...
Why would you have to kill them? There are several non lethal places to hit hit an assailant and stop his his progression. JMO
Why am I at Dicks? I'm obviously intoxicated or lost my mind and should not be carrying anyway. If you did shoot the clerk would have to carry your gun to the door when you leave (probably why the BG had a knife).
I hate what ifs.
I'm sorry but there is a lot of fail in this thread.
Even if I wasn't a Police Officer I would differently pull my handgun and stop a forcible felony from occurring (even though it isn't my money, nor my family or loved ones endangered). I also am not able to read minds, so I'm just going to go ahead and assume that someone who is capable of pulling a knife on another human being and committing armed robbery is also capable of sticking said knife into that person and killing them. I have yet to see someone announce prior to sticking a knife in them that " I am now going to stick my knife into the left side of your chest and I will do this twice". "I will then pull the knife back out and after stabbing your 3 times on the right side of your neck I will then attempt to slice your neck open". Again call it an assumption but I'm going to error on the side of safety (of the victim of the armored robbery) and intervene before it happens.
By the way if that person has their knife out already, you are behind the game now. Waiting for them to start cutting or stabbing the victim, prior to intervening (just to make sure they are actually threatened) is going to cause that person to lose their life.
To be gentle, the only advice I have for you is to get some really good training. You aim and shoot to stop the threat as soon as possible, you do not aim for lethal or non lethal "places".
No draw! hand on weapon and back up!! keep something between you and him. let him have the money. follow him out the door (safe distance) with cell phone to ear and call 911
Pull the pistol & try 2 make a citizens arrest. Yell for someone 2 call 911. If he comes @ you or the cashier, stop him any way you want. I would do it for you, your Wife, daughter, son, grandma, or your favorite democrat.