What to expect when Ohio votes on abortion and marijuana

[BugI02]

I honestly don’t care about the weed thing. I think we would be better off just quitting the war on drugs and moving on. We have probably made it worse by fighting it, for sure made the cartels super rich. The abortion thing is another matter. I just can’t even budge on what I believe is killing a baby. Not even a little bit. There may be valid reasons, may be, but those would need the same level of justification in my mind as killing any other person. any state that has a lot of big cities, and Ohio has several largish ones, seems to eventually fall left.

Pot, or any drugs for that matter, and abortion are part of the same citizen decay process. When you show children that there are no limits and if they bitch loud enough and in great enough numbers they can get what they want - and that 'if it feels good, do it' should be their mantra - then you are well down the road to destruction

Even though I'm an occasional scotch drinker, when people argue 'alcohol is a drug' I'm inclined to agree with them and lump it and tobacco in with everything else that should be prohibited. We would undoubtedly be better off. Perhaps outlaw commercial production and require those who want to drink and smoke to be dedicated enough to supply their own as in colonial days

 

[BugI02]

That is called "Molly's Joint" and I believe they are having bands and other live entertainment along with the restaurant. I have not been there and will never be there so I could be wrong, just what I have heard.
With the restaurant deal I don't know if it works as a dispensary or not but will not be finding out. What I understand is to enter a dispensary you must show I.D. and it is scanned into their records. You have now declared yourself as an Illegal (federal law not Illinois) drug user. Now what happens when you go to an FFL to buy a firearm and fill out the 4473? Jim.

I've often wondered if FedGov looking the other way on state level legalization isn't one of their potentially more effective ways to limit gun rights in the future when the database is big enough

It will only affect law-abiding gun owners, of course, the typical gun owning democrat voter doesn't follow the law anyway - if he did, he wouldn't be able to possess a gun

 

[BugI02]

Just to be clear, I did not suggest Pro Life groups cede their beliefs. The gist of my comment was that Pro Life is not the Republican Party, and there could (and I think should) be a debate on how much the GOP should allow those beliefs to dictate their platform.

We already know if the 2A fell below the waterline of public opinion, the GOP would pragmatically drop it like a flaming sack of turds. Indiana's own "Life At Conception" GOP Senator Dan Coats voted for the Brady Bill and 1994 Assault Weapon Ban along with other Republicans, both of which actually became Federal law, and Hoosiers forgave and forgot and sent him back to D.C. - with glowing endorsement fron Pro Life Groups.

Now that the stated goal of reversing RvW has been achieved - on an issue where public opinion has moved the opposite direction in the last half-century - I think it's time to spread some of that "pragmatism" around. Pro Life does not speak for all Republican voters. If they feel further Federal action on abortion is warranted, and the GOP does not accurately represent their beliefs, they are perfectly free to start a party of their own.

I would still like to see a 'father' bring a case (cynically) that abortion is a violation of the equal protection clause because he is responsible for the child financially if the 'mother' elects to continue the pregnancy to term but has no say in the decision (the cynical encapsulation would be that she can elect to kill the child but he cannot)

If decided in favor of the plaintiff, I think it might inject a lot of realignment in pro-choice if the 'father' could get a 'get out of child support free' card if he was not consulted about the decision to carry or terminate and being required to get the 'father's' input might put somewhat of a damper on aborting so casually

 

[oze]

The small-government answer to abortion is liberty…if you want an abortion and can convince a doctor the need is legitimate you get your abortion. The Republican answer is criminalization.

Inelegant Republican messaging is not what is turning off the voters...It’s the underlying policies doing that.

Well, murder is a criminal act.

 

[BugI02]

What's the plan to fix all of this?

Just keep bitching about it?

Step 1: re-elect Trump

Step 2: get behind America First and PUSH with the hope of arresting the moral and physical decay of America

Step 3: toss the country club republicans who can't or won't support a moral and patriotic re-awakening out on their ears

Step 4: implement Schedule F and summarily fire any bureaucrats who won't get with the program

Step 5: bludgeon elite academia into submission with extreme economic pressure, and then once you break them, start deprogramming their product

Edit: Step 1A: Take a page from the dem playbook and no matter how slim the mandate, drive the government like you stole it

 

[AndreusMaximus]

I have to disagree, the Republican Party is not one of small government, individual liberty, or ethical governance…and that’s their problem, not their press team.

Changing the messaging only works if people actually want what is being sold with that message, so…what is the GOP actually selling?

Factually: More restrictions on abortion, more tax cuts for the wealthy, and more Trump.

The small-government answer to abortion is liberty…if you want an abortion and can convince a doctor the need is legitimate you get your abortion. The Republican answer is criminalization.

The small-government answer to marijuana is liberty…if you want to buy pot and you can find someone willing to sell it you get your drugs. The Republican answer is criminalization.

The answer for corruption is accountability for the corrupt, which the Republicans have shown no desire to sincerely pursue.

Inelegant Republican messaging is not what is turning off the voters...It’s the underlying policies doing that.

What you said sounds like a logically consistent case, but it simply doesn't line up with facts.

First, let's tackle the abortion issue, in part A and B.

Part A, is your argument that abortion is somehow a small government vs. big government issue. This simply isn't the case; it's a moral issue. Can you imagine if somebody said to you that the small government solution to slavery is letting each rich person decide for themselves whether or not they have a legitimate need to own slaves, but the big government issue is to criminalize it. You'd call that person crazy, I imagine, because things like slavery, theft, and murder, are not big gov vs. small gov questions; they're morality questions. Small government doesn't just mean legalizing more and more things, it means trimming back excess government programs, curbing spending, reducing taxes, etc. The abortion question hinges on whether or not you believe abortion is killing a human life. There's nobody out there thinking "Yes, abortion kills an innocent human being, but I don't want the government to protect those innocent lives because that's government overreach." Conversely, there's nobody out there saying "I don't think abortion is wrong, but I think we need to establish a new bureau of abortions to heavily regulate them." Abortion is a moral issue; it has nothing to do with whether or not you believe in big vs small government. Period.

But all that is really just a distraction from the question at hand, which is not the morality of abortion vs individual liberty or whatever, but rather: whether or not the Republican party aligns with the majority in this country on the question of abortion, which brings us to the actually relevant part B: Look at what every democrat-run state has done vs every republican-run state post Roe v Wade. Democrat-run states are pushing for legalized abortion up to birth no questions asked, and most have achieved that or close to that. Meanwhile even the most conservative Republican-lead states have left abortion legal in cases of threat of health to the mother, rape, before a certain gestational age, or all three. Polls on abortion can be all over the place, but one thing they almost all agree on is that the majority of American favor some sort of restrictions on abortion. If you don't want to google it yourself I just copy/pasted the top three links from searching "late term abortion opinion poll": and virtually all the polls agree that the majority of Americans don't want abortion criminalized entirely, but still favor some sort of restrictions, especially on late-term abortions. Their opinions, in fact, align much more closely with what Republicans have actually put into place in the cases where they have control.

AP-NORC poll: Most say restrict abortion after 1st trimester

A new poll shows a solid majority of Americans believe most abortions should be legal in the first three months of a woman’s pregnancy, but most say the procedure should usually be illegal in the second and third trimesters.

apnews.com

Where do Americans Stand on Abortion?

Public opinion polling on Americans’ positions on abortion.

sbaprolife.org

Abortion

With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life? Do you think abortions should be legal under any circumstances, legal only under certain circumstances, or illegal in all circumstances?

news.gallup.com

So, again, the question we are asking: why has public opinion turned against Republicans on abortion? You have opined that the general public disagrees with the GOP on abortion. But this is easily refuted by looking at any of the abortion laws that the GOP has actually put into place, and comparing that with polling data on abortion. So what is it, then, if not a messaging issue? If the mainstream media constantly pointed out that Democrats want unlimited abortion up to the moment that a baby takes his/her first breath, while he GOP wants to make late-term abortion illegal, with mixed results on whether to leave it generally legal in the early stages, vs generally illegal with broad exceptions for health, rape, etc, then the public would be far more on the Republican party's side. The reason they aren't is because the media constantly portrays Republicans as wanting to ban abortion entirely, no exceptions, which simply doesn't line up with what they've actually done when in power.

Okay, I'll try to be more succinct with the other two points.

Regarding Donald Trump, he is himself a walking, breathing messaging problem; really, the epitome of this problem for the GOP. His brash attitude, and political incorrectness turn people off, but to this day I've yet to see a single leftist critique the man on the basis of any law/policy of his. In fact, he's done a lot of things that folks on the left would normally cheer about, like the bump stock ban, or prison reform. What is this if not a messaging issue? The fact that no one on the left ever critiques his economic policies, or the laws he pushed for, but only critiques him for the mean things he says, or for how "unpresidential" he is, or because he claimed the 2020 election was stolen (why do Democrats always get a pass on that, anyways? How many times did Hillary claim that Putin stole 2016 from her? Anybody else remember that?*) anyways, it all goes to show the very point being made in this thread: it's not about what the Republican politicians actually do in office. It's their image.

Anyways, regarding corruption, yes the GOP establishment has a real issue with that. But you aren't seriously going to claim that the Democrats are any better on this count, are you? But even on the corruption issue, there's a massive messaging problem. For heaven's sake, they made their first tiny baby step toward holding a corrupt politician accountable, by voting out their current house speaker for breaking his promises, and the message sold to the American public by the media was that this was the GOP acting like crybabies.

(*Citation)

 

[bwframe]

You posted a thread, I answered.

GOP: "In the wake of RvW's reversal, the GOP will pursue no further abortion policy proposals at the Federal level. Those unsatisfied with the current situation are advised to consult with your State Party Chair and associated elected officials."

>>> Mic drop.

Don't tell me they can't do it. We have an Indianapolis GOP Mayoral candidate leading off his campaign with an AWB and repealing con-carry, for chrissakes. The GOP apparently has more than enough flexibility to do whatso-f'in-ever they feel is needed to win elections at the state and local level, regardless whether it sacrifices "Republican values," with little to no interference from Ronna McRomney. If the GOP Platform Straightjacket doesn't necessarily protect 2A at the local or state level, then I think we've seen the effective limits of a Platform, anyway.

Now, your turn: what should be the GOP message on marijuana?

I didn't see you give any answers, just more bitching. No solutions.


I answered your question above. You must have been too busy whining?

...No new laws. Let things play out, kick the can down the road, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Kdf101]

Agree with your opinion or not, the best solution is to NOT be reactionary. No new laws. Let things play out, kick the can down the road, whatever you want to call it.

We would benefit greatly by not making emotional voting decisions. Emotions are high on abortion after last years SCOTUS decision. We should take the SCOTUS win and leave it alone for the next few years. Don't mess with "women's health" as sold by 50 years of and generations of girls be taught that lie. Let this thing calm down, so we don't have to lose multiple elections on it. Who knows what else might be lost along with this emotional issue.

Similarly, wait for the building statistics of what "legalized marijuana" is doing to the locals where it has been adopted. The longer these "legal" places go, the more negative reports come out on the effects of the spread of this problem. We could talk about this problem to eternity, but the truth is there is no denying the opioid crisis in America. Promotion of the casual use of "legal" intoxicants should be a consideration?

If we fool around and let emotions dictate votes in critical states, it could make huge differences deeper that is apparent. Maybe some issues that can't be reeled back in? We know what the libs would do to election integrity, given the chance, right?

Another consideration is that if we in Indiana end up surrounded by liberal mentality states, how will it be before we are sucked in also? How many tomes in recent years have we heard, "our surrounding states have all..."

Pot, or any drugs for that matter, and abortion are part of the same citizen decay process. When you show children that there are no limits and if they bitch loud enough and in great enough numbers they can get what they want - and that 'if it feels good, do it' should be their mantra - then you are well down the road to destruction

Even though I'm an occasional scotch drinker, when people argue 'alcohol is a drug' I'm inclined to agree with them and lump it and tobacco in with everything else that should be prohibited. We would undoubtedly be better off. Perhaps outlaw commercial production and require those who want to drink and smoke to be dedicated enough to supply their own as in colonial days

Well, that is your opinion, and you are certainly entitled to it. I disagree on the drug (and as you brought up, alcohol) issue. I want as little govt as possible. Again, your opinion is yours and mine is mine. i Just think that drugs/alcohol are a personal choice that govt needs to stay out of. Yes, there are issues that come up with their use. Okay, then deal with the criminal issues, if there are any, and leave the thing that many don’t like alone. My beef with abortion is not religious based, it is based on my be
ief that it is killing a person. And killing a person is depriving someone else, the baby in this example, of their basic right to life, therefore; I believe there should be certain restrictions on that. I don’t believe a total ban, just restrictions, to me exactly the same as using lethal means to defend yourself. That is my view anyway. Yours may differ.

 

[Twangbanger]

I didn't see you give any answers, just more bitching. No solutions.


I answered your question above. You must have been too busy whining?

I will re-pose the question.

If:

A) The GOP's existing, status quo position on Marijuana ("keep it illegal") poses a "message problem," and

B) Your solution is "no new laws" and to "kick the can down the road" (ie, do nothing)

...then...(drumroll)...

...what narrative did you change, exactly?

I'm not a legalization proponent, I'm just following the logic of your thread. If the narrative is bad...and you do nothing...then how did the GOP improve their narrative ?

 

[bwframe]

I will re-pose the question.

If:

A) The GOP's existing, status quo position on Marijuana ("keep it illegal") poses a "message problem," and

B) Your solution is "no new laws" and to "kick the can down the road" (ie, do nothing)

...then...(drumroll)...

...what narrative did you change, exactly?

I'm not a legalization proponent, I'm just following the logic of your thread. If the narrative is bad...and you do nothing...then how did the GOP improve their narrative ?

The abortion and pot legalization narrative of the GOP is simple. STFU about them.

When asked...

Let's talk about crime, what we are gonna do about it.

Let's talk about the opioid crisis, what we are gonna do about it.

Let's talk about mental illness, what we are gonna do about it.

Let's talk about abortion? SCOTUS has ruled. No new laws proposed, at this time.


No solutions for the GOP from you yet? Only griping. Still waiting...

 

[Twangbanger]

How do you intend to fix the narrative? What changes do you suggest? Voters already know that republicans want more restrictions on abortion, less taxes for the rich, and more Donald Trump...

Don't forget cheap labor...

 

[oze]

How do you intend to fix the narrative? What changes do you suggest? Voters already know that republicans want more restrictions on abortion, less taxes for the rich, and more Donald Trump.

Republicans don’t have a messaging problem, they have a platform problem.

OK, I'll play. Democrats want infanticide on demand, jobs moving out of the country by having the highest corporate income taxes in the world, and more Joe Biden.

Democrats have a platform problem, but they don't have a messaging problem because they have the Fourth Estate advocating for them.

 

[bwframe]

Looks like we're surrounded?

Ohio passes Issue 1 ballot measure enshrining abortion protections

A ballot measure seeking to enshrine abortion protections into Ohio’s state Constitution is projected to pass, according to Decision Desk HQ, delivering a major win for Democrats and abortion right…

thehill.com

 

[oze]

Looks like we're surrounded?

Ohio passes Issue 1 ballot measure enshrining abortion protections

A ballot measure seeking to enshrine abortion protections into Ohio’s state Constitution is projected to pass, according to Decision Desk HQ, delivering a major win for Democrats and abortion right…

thehill.com

I wonder what the future will think of this once mighty civilization that codified the "right" to kill its own babies, as they read "The Decline and Fall of The United States of America ".

 

[bwframe]

 

[Ingomike]

The Republican answer is criminalization.

The democrat answer is murdering babies at birth…

 

[ljk]

The democrat answer is murdering babies at birth…

The republican's winning strategy is to lose elections.

Oh, well.

 

[Twangbanger]

Looks like we're surrounded?

Ohio passes Issue 1 ballot measure enshrining abortion protections

A ballot measure seeking to enshrine abortion protections into Ohio’s state Constitution is projected to pass, according to Decision Desk HQ, delivering a major win for Democrats and abortion right…

thehill.com

On the bright side, the annual Shelton's fireworks trip just got more interesting

 

[bwframe]

Looks like yer Shelton's fireworks trip just got more interesting

Yep, make for one stop shopping road trips.

 

[Route 45]

On a practical, political level (morals aside), what's the downside of leftists not producing any more babies?