What is "Black Lives Matter"?

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    jamil

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    Can we say institutional implicit racial bias?


    And let's be honest - just because it was made illegal doesn't mean it disappeared.



    The way I see it, SJW look and see some screws loose around the place, so they grab sledgehammers to fix it.

    If you reduced that to just say "institutional bias", I could agree with that.

    Some of it I think you could say involves an institutionally racial bias, but that's not racist. It's not "implied" either. With an institution it's either biased for or against some class of people or not. Stop-n-frisk I believe is a good example of a policy that is racially biased, not implicitly or intentionally. It inherently involves stereotyping, which by itself is not racist at least within the traditional definition of racism. It's human nature to attach meaning to groups according to our own perceptions. Stereotyping isn't an accurate way to judge an individual within a group. But to the extent it's helped groups pass on their genes, stereotyping is an evolutionary feature, not a bug. It's just one of those features where we're socially evolving past most of its usefulness. As it pertains to stop and frisk, using stereotyping to decide who could be committing a crime is not accurate enough to justify using it, because it will affect a lot of people who haven't done anything wrong.

    For all practical purposes institutional racism has disappeared. Individual instances of racism hasn't disappeared, and institutional power wielded by individual racists hasn't disappeared. But that's not the same as institutional racism. I don't think stop and frisk is inherently racist, but its outcome impacts black people more than white people for various reasons that aren't racist.

    I think I agree with the idea that SJW's saw some screws around the place that are legitimately loose. Some of critical race theory is based on things that are objectively true. But it's not really accurate to say that they're taking a sledge hammer to fixing them. That kinda implies that they're just being overzealous in fixing legitimate problems. But only some of the problems are legitimate. And their solution is as destructive as the problem. But the crux of it is that they don't understand the world the way Western society views the world. It's a different world altogether. They see manhy screws loose that aren't actually lose. Virtually no one is a real ass Fascist. They imagine themselves fighting armies of Fascists. This is because they think Capitalism is pretty much the same as Fascism, for one example. So what's the proper solution to fixing Fascism? End Capitalism.

    The tools they use to understand the world makes their world they see look far different to them from the one that everyone else sees. Some of those tools are critical theory, and Marxism, critical race theory, and then many ideas later were borrowed from the French philosophers that theorized postmodernism. Seeing the world from a different perspective does allow them to see some things we might not have. But they see those problems in far greater proportions and they see many problems that don't actually exist. Borrow a tool like "deconstruction" and morph that into "Problematizing" and you'll find all kinds of problems that don't actually exist.

    I'll digress a little here. One of the criticisms of Jordan Peterson was that he called these people Postmodernists AND Marxists. And to his credit he did admit he didn't quite understand the link. It's not that there isn't one. But Peterson was criticized by both Marxists AND Postmodernists because they both say the other is incompatible with their ideology. But this worldview seems to be constructed from an ala carte collection of tools which borrows ideas from all those left end thinkers. At it's foundation they see every transaction as a power game between oppressed and oppressor, for one example. That's a feature of both Neo-Marxism and Postmodernism. So I guess we could say what links insane social justice to Marxism and Postmodernism is that insane social justice is an intersection of those ideas. Or more accurately, a worldview constructed by tools that both ideologies have in common.
     

    BugI02

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    I posted a graph showing that most people incarcerated are at the state and local level, and the majority of those are in for violent offenses rather than drug offenses

    I wonder what percent of that violence revolves around the drug trade.

    Your response, which I interpreted to be pushing toward the idea that an unknown number of violent offenses might still somehow be related to the drug trade, the point being they're still violent offenses regardless of postulated motivation

    Does it matter if you kill somebody because they scuffed your sneakers or were dealing on your corner? You're still going down for murder

    The trope that everybody is in jail for dime bag busts has always been bull****, just another repackaging of 'the man is keeping them down'

    Who made that claim? The war on drugs has a much wider affect that people dealing dime bags. It needs to end.

    Zeroing in on specific dismissive language selected by me to satirize the myth that a huge number of incarcerated people are in jail for non-violent drug crimes, often intimated to be simple posession or low level sale. The criticism of the language selected might be valid but in no way obviates my point, which is that the fiction of the otherwise innocent low level offender caught up in the machinery of the war on drugs, who but for that would be innocently taking care of his family by holding down a job and contributing to the community, is just that - a fiction
     

    jamil

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    Does it matter if you kill somebody because they scuffed your sneakers or were dealing on your corner? You're still going down for murder

    The trope that everybody is in jail for dime bag busts has always been bull****, just another repackaging of 'the man is keeping them down'

    So you're asserting that the increased incarceration rates were due to an increase of violent crime? Is that really what you're asserting? I ask because I already know the answer to that. If you've ever been in a gun control debate with an anti-gun zealot who claims that increased availability of guns increases violent crime, you've probably shown them the same graph I'm thinking of.
     

    BugI02

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    So you're asserting that the increased incarceration rates were due to an increase of violent crime? Is that really what you're asserting? I ask because I already know the answer to that. If you've ever been in a gun control debate with an anti-gun zealot who claims that increased availability of guns increases violent crime, you've probably shown them the same graph I'm thinking of.

    Might want to ... review? ... #1887 before jumping in here

    The original assertion, which I dispute, is that the war on drugs exacerbated the rise in total incareceration and annual rates from the mid 70s until the late 00s
     

    jamil

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    I posted a graph showing that most people incarcerated are at the state and local level, and the majority of those are in for violent offenses rather than drug offenses



    Your response, which I interpreted to be pushing toward the idea that an unknown number of violent offenses might still somehow be related to the drug trade, the point being they're still violent offenses regardless of postulated motivation





    Zeroing in on specific dismissive language selected by me to satirize the myth that a huge number of incarcerated people are in jail for non-violent drug crimes, often intimated to be simple posession or low level sale. The criticism of the language selected might be valid but in no way obviates my point, which is that the fiction of the otherwise innocent low level offender caught up in the machinery of the war on drugs, who but for that would be innocently taking care of his family by holding down a job and contributing to the community, is just that - a fiction

    We're talking about an increase in incarceration rates. The theory I've argued for is that the increase is largely due to the war on drugs. I mean that sounds self evident for **** sake. If you now have a war on drugs, exactly what do you do with people who commit drug crimes? Do you stop them and just say 'no' and then let them go? What pray tell might a program that calls itself the war on drugs do TO PEOPLE WHO TRAFFIC AND USE DRUGS for **** sake?

    So I'll ask the question again. Did violent crime go up during the war on drugs or did it go down? Too lazy to go find the graph. It went down. For various reasons, one of which is from proponents of stop and frisk, with the rationale that druggies are arrested for lower crimes and then taken off the streets so that they aren't on the streets to do more violent crimes. I suspect that narrative isn't true, but that's another issue.
     

    jamil

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    Might want to ... review? ... #1887 before jumping in here

    The original assertion, which I dispute, is that the war on drugs exacerbated the rise in total incareceration and annual rates from the mid 70s until the late 00s

    You said that it's violent crime they're incarcerated for, mostly locally, and not drug crimes. Have incidents for violent crime increased in that time range that they would make up the primary cause for the graph Alpo posted? The reasons for that graph are essentially the points being argued here.
     

    BugI02

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    You said that it's violent crime they're incarcerated for, mostly locally, and not drug crimes. Have incidents for violent crime increased in that time range that they would make up the primary cause for the graph Alpo posted? The reasons for that graph are essentially the points being argued here.

    Reviewing, you know ... the graph ... in #1887 ... for 2013 (the exemplar), at the state level, I'm seeing about 1.3 million total incarcerations, of which 700k are for violent offenses and only 200k are drug related

    At the federal level, I'm seeing maybe 200k total incarcerations, of which 100k are drug related and perhaps something just over 10k are violent. Total is about 1.5 million incarcerated, of which ~47.3% are violent offenders and ~20% are drug related. It hardly seems that the war on drugs is that much of a driver of incarceration.

    True, half the incarcerated at the federal level are in for drug related crimes, but I'm going to assume you don't go up on federal charges for posession or low level dealing - which is the myth being promulgated about those imprisoned by/from the war on drugs
     

    JTScribe

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    Great discussion, and I'm semi-reluctant to change the subject, but this is on topic.

    https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ally-support-la-bodeguita-de-mima/5562669002/

    This second article covers the same topic, but has the money quote I wanted to share.

    https://thepostmillennial.com/cuban-community-refuses-blm-demands

    A member of the Revolutionary Black Panther Party of Kentucky spoke in support of the Cuban American business owners that were concerned about their ability to do business under threat of intimidation. Ahamara Brewster called the tactics of BLM activists "terroristic."

    Priceless, LOL.
     

    BugI02

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    Incidents of all types of crime were increasing from the time of the war on drugs (1972 -ish) until peaking in the late 80s (property crime) and the early 90s (violent crime), 'coincidently' trending down in the wake of tougher sentencing laws. In fact the rising crime rates were one driver of the 'truth in sentencing' laws in the late 80s (1986-ish?) and in Biden's famously co-authored VCCLEA in 1994


    View attachment 89713
     
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    BugI02

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    Great discussion, and I'm semi-reluctant to change the subject, but this is on topic.

    https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ally-support-la-bodeguita-de-mima/5562669002/

    This second article covers the same topic, but has the money quote I wanted to share.

    https://thepostmillennial.com/cuban-community-refuses-blm-demands

    A member of the Revolutionary Black Panther Party of Kentucky spoke in support of the Cuban American business owners that were concerned about their ability to do business under threat of intimidation. Ahamara Brewster called the tactics of BLM activists "terroristic."

    Priceless, LOL.

    Any idea what is prompting the criticism by the panthers? Is it genuine concern for the little people or more because BLM is working their side of the street?
     

    JTScribe

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    Any idea what is prompting the criticism by the panthers? Is it genuine concern for the little people or more because BLM is working their side of the street?

    Next line, "She said "That was another thing that was upsetting: You're attacking a Black/brown establishment, but you’re in the name of Black Lives Matter. Something’s weird about this.""
     

    jamil

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    Great discussion, and I'm semi-reluctant to change the subject, but this is on topic.

    https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...ally-support-la-bodeguita-de-mima/5562669002/

    This second article covers the same topic, but has the money quote I wanted to share.

    https://thepostmillennial.com/cuban-community-refuses-blm-demands

    A member of the Revolutionary Black Panther Party of Kentucky spoke in support of the Cuban American business owners that were concerned about their ability to do business under threat of intimidation. Ahamara Brewster called the tactics of BLM activists "terroristic."

    Priceless, LOL.

    That's really interesting. I've heard of RBPP, but I don't really know much about them. Reading through their own site, I have to say, their grand poohbah sure does like him some Chairman Mao.

    My first impression is that RBPP and the social justice movement, including BLM have different goals. RBPP wants to create a Black Marxism. So it's kinda like "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" except the "from" and "to" are all Black people. I think they want a separate Black society that is collectively self-sufficient and Marxist. They also seem to have a lot of people with Arabic names, so it may be that many of them are part of The Nation of Islam as well.

    That's not really the same goal as BLM. I don't think the RBPP uses words like "performative" in every day speech like BLM leaders do. BLM seems very aligned with the postmodern/Marxist social justice movement. The goal seems to be deconstructing America and Western Society and reconstructing it with all the new institutions concocted within grievance studies academia. So that seems counter to the goal of a separate Black Marxist society.
     

    Alpo

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    I've been doing a little more reading on changes in society in the post-WWII period as crime in general, and violent crime specifically, escalated beginning in the 60's and for the next few decades thereafter. The "causes" are many and can be lumped into what Steven Pinker has labeled "Decivilization". It's a pretty interesting read and while not totally on topic with what was discussed previously, it does remark on the broader set of conditions and behaviors that have led us to the point we are now at...at least to some degree. I think he underplays the role of drugs, but I can't disagree with any of his major observations and conclusions.

    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/humfig...ilization-in-the-1960s?rgn=main;view=fulltext

    https://stevenpinker.com/content/reviews-better-angels-our-nature
     
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    Leadeye

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    Incarceration of criminals became more of a political issue in the late 70's, people were getting unhappy with what was the equivalent of SJW judges and leadership back then. The "survivalist" movement picked up a lot of speed in the late 70's, back when president Carter said the country was in a "malaise."
     

    BugI02

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    I've been doing a little more reading on changes in society in the post-WWII period as crime in general, and violent crime specifically, escalated beginning in the 60's and for the next few decades thereafter. The "causes" are many and can be lumped into what Steven Pinker has labeled "Decivilization". It's a pretty interesting read and while not totally on topic with what was discussed previously, it does remark on the broader set of conditions and behaviors that have led us to the point we are now at...at least to some degree. I think he underplays the role of drugs, but I can't disagree with any of his major observations and conclusions.

    https://quod.lib.umich.edu/h/humfig...ilization-in-the-1960s?rgn=main;view=fulltext


    Just a feel-good, pretty fiction, much like the one about the war on drugs causing so many of our problems. Not even a hypothesis, no data given and no testable predictions made. If he has such an erudite understanding of what motivates the rise in violence, one would think he could postulate what comes next or that he would have predicted years ago the violence spike of today's political landscape

    An exercize in curve fitting, using a poorly delineated curve
     

    jamil

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    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/20...treet-white-mom-murdered-saying-lives-matter/

    "Indianapolis Paints Giant Black Lives Matter Mural a Block From Street Where White Mom Was Murdered for Saying ‘All Lives Matter’"

    Well. A block away. I think it's easy to imagine that it's a "**** you" to the family. But even beside that optical problem, at this point I think it's very hard to defend the position that BLM implies "black lives matter too", given the demands that are being made. By their own actions they're making it pretty easy for honest people to suspect BLM is about supremacy.
     
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