What is "Black Lives Matter"?

[jamil]

I have my own plan for welfare, especially when it comes to child support. Single parent with one child gets $X per month. That support goes down with each additional child until you reach a point where you get zero support. And it should reach zero quite rapidly. And absolutely no financial support for abortions. All the free prophylactics you want though. And I'd be okay with funding voluntary sterilization for both males and females. Please note that I make no distinction with regard to race.

I'm not fond of a welfare state. We live (still) in a mostly merit based society. But there are some folks at the bottom who through no fault of their own, do not possess the faculties to be successful on their own, or have been dealt some particularly harsh realities, through no fault of their own. I do think there should be a safety net to help those people survive. I'm not sure what the answer is for that. I'd rather have our systems encourage self reliance to the extent possible, while also helping people who can't be self reliant stay out of poverty. It's not completely out of compassion that I say this. It's that poverty creates societal problems of its own, and we're a better society if we take care of those who can't take care of themselves.

But for sure, whatever system we have should not encourage a cycle of dependency on government. It should not encourage behaviors that tear down the individual attributes which tend to make success more likely than failure. Like tearing apart the nuclear family, for example.

 

[jamil]

Uhhh, that appears to be cumulative. How do you distinguish the effects of longer sentences from more arrests in those circumstances

I don't think that actually matters. Either way it keeps fathers out of the family. I suppose one could argue that a father who would end up in jail wouldn't contribute to the success of his kids. But being in jail has a greater chance of making that father's character even worse. And also, comparing the impact of the war on drugs blacks vs whites, I does seem it's disproportionately biased against blacks.

 

[Clay Pigeon]

One of my neighbors just told me there will be a peaceful blm protest in Alexandria tomorrow. She said none of the folks that have signed up are from Alex, all from Hamilton and Marion co. The heckling should be funny....

 

[BugI02]

Are you arguing the total vs rate of incarceration or the affect of the drug war on incarcerations?

I'm arguing that the Alpo graph doesn't show what he says/thinks it does and perhaps he might want to correct it. At the peak, total incarcerated was ~60% greater than annual, so it is obvious length of sentence/residually incarcerated has a non-negligible effect and if one needs to use exaggerated data to make a point, the point is suspect

 

[foszoe]

I'm arguing that the Alpo graph doesn't show what he says/thinks it does and perhaps he might want to correct it. At the peak, total incarcerated was ~60% greater than annual, so it is obvious length of sentence/residually incarcerated has a non-negligible effect and if one needs to use exaggerated data to make a point, the point is suspect

Had no idea there was any other kind.

 

[Alpo]

Had no idea there was any other kind.

Some people always assume there is a complex agenda underneath. Sometimes the chart should be allowed to speak for itself before the "Yah Butts" show up.

Incarcerations of over 2 million souls is an indictment of our drug policies and our "tough on crime" approach. Where it started is pretty obvious on the chart.

ps. I didn't bother to put incarceration by race graphs up. That would have made a YahButt head explode.

 

[STEEL CORE]

I’m done with Indy, won’t go unless I have to, won’t spend any $$$ in Indy, no sports, no fair, no show. BLM rules the city, so go ahead and paint the street(s), I may have to go to the VA cause I have too, but that’s it. “FI” !!!

 

[BugI02]

Some people always assume there is a complex agenda underneath. Sometimes the chart should be allowed to speak for itself before the "Yah Butts" show up.

Incarcerations of over 2 million souls is an indictment of our drug policies and our "tough on crime" approach. Where it started is pretty obvious on the chart.

ps. I didn't bother to put incarceration by race graphs up. That would have made a YahButt head explode.

You should do the ones about incarceration by gender, too. I must assume you would conclude that the war on drugs was sexist

Do you even statistics, bro

 

[jamil]

You should do the ones about incarceration by gender, too. I must assume you would conclude that the war on drugs was sexist

Do you even statistics, bro

Something I think needs clearing up. There's no longer such thing as an institutional form racism. I think most all of us here pretty much agree that the term is bull****. Policies that can be inherently discriminatory to specific social groups is not racism. Actually, real ass racism, at least before the cultural Marxists redefined it requires intent. Racism is a belief that favors one race over another, or hatred or animosity towards a race on the basis of that race. Institutions can be implemented by real ass racists and therefore have a racist intent. That would be real ass institutional racism. That was made illegal by the CRA.

The definition of institutional racism today is much more broad and it's bull****. It simply means an institution that has a disproportionate outcome for one or more races compared to dominate races. And by dominate, that always means white, even if they are a numeric minority. But since that's bull****, lets not try to apply "institutional racism" to the war on drugs, because there is no evidence it was implemented for the purpose of oppressing black people. But we could say that Alpo is asserting that there is an inherently discriminatory outcome for black people inherent to the war on drugs. Now if Alpo is asserting that it was racist, then graphs and charts won't prove that. He'd need a paper trail and documentation that it was implemented to harm black people.

Okay. So I hope that's cleared up. It's not institutional racism being debated. I think Aplo's assertion is that the war on drugs primarily caused the destruction of the nuclear family because of increased incarceration of black people, and largely for minor crimes. I think the graph supports his claim as I understand it, at least that it is a major factor. There are many factors. The war on drugs is responsible for more than just one. Not only does the war on drugs take the man out of the family because of incarceration, it creates a cycle of escalating crime. It creates a black market which invites the formation of gangs into the areas. They sell more drugs. More people are arrested. More people go to jail. Young people grow up without a dad. Moms get hooked on drugs. Kids grow up without a sense of belonging and they turn to gangs. But the welfare state is also a contributing factor. It rewards having lots of kids and it rewards fatherless families. I suspect that the welfare state and the war on drugs was a one-two punch. Sort of a synergistic relationship that helps create a positive feedback loop which destroys families and then by extension the communities they live in.

 

[Alpo]

I think Aplo's assertion is that the war on drugs primarily caused the destruction of the nuclear family because of increased incarceration of black people, and largely for minor crimes. I think the graph supports his claim as I understand it, at least that it is a major factor. There are many factors. The war on drugs is responsible for more than just one. Not only does the war on drugs take the man out of the family because of incarceration, it creates a cycle of escalating crime. It creates a black market which invites the formation of gangs into the areas. They sell more drugs. More people are arrested. More people go to jail. Young people grow up without a dad. Moms get hooked on drugs. Kids grow up without a sense of belonging and they turn to gangs. But the welfare state is also a contributing factor. It rewards having lots of kids and it rewards fatherless families. I suspect that the welfare state and the war on drugs was a one-two punch. Sort of a synergistic relationship that helps create a positive feedback loop which destroys families and then by extension the communities they live in.

 

[Tombs]

The war on drugs being a racial issue seems strange to me. Are black people more inclined towards drug use than white people? If so, why?
I understand the rest of the point, but that part specifically seems suspect to me.

 

[jamil]

The war on drugs being a racial issue seems strange to me. Are black people more inclined towards drug use than white people? If so, why?
I understand the rest of the point, but that part specifically seems suspect to me.

It's only "racist" because cultural Marxists like to redefine words. But that doesn't mean that for various reasons a policy inherently has a higher impact one one or more racial groups more than others. That's not racist, that's not intentional. It's what it is. It doesn't mean that black people use drugs more than other people. But because of various reasons it affects that community in ways that it doesn't affect others. And possibly that could have something to do with past racism. I think during Jim Crow it would make a lot of people bitter. And that might contribute to the problem. But I'm not black. And I really don't know the culture enough to say. That's all speculation. But the drug war does seem to have affected black communities a hell of a lot more than many white communities.

Poor white communities have similar problems, so I suspect it has correlation with poverty.

 

[BugI02]

Something I think needs clearing up. There's no longer such thing as an institutional form racism. I think most all of us here pretty much agree that the term is bull****. Policies that can be inherently discriminatory to specific social groups is not racism. Actually, real ass racism, at least before the cultural Marxists redefined it requires intent. Racism is a belief that favors one race over another, or hatred or animosity towards a race on the basis of that race. Institutions can be implemented by real ass racists and therefore have a racist intent. That would be real ass institutional racism. That was made illegal by the CRA.

The definition of institutional racism today is much more broad and it's bull****. It simply means an institution that has a disproportionate outcome for one or more races compared to dominate races. And by dominate, that always means white, even if they are a numeric minority. But since that's bull****, lets not try to apply "institutional racism" to the war on drugs, because there is no evidence it was implemented for the purpose of oppressing black people. But we could say that Alpo is asserting that there is an inherently discriminatory outcome for black people inherent to the war on drugs. Now if Alpo is asserting that it was racist, then graphs and charts won't prove that. He'd need a paper trail and documentation that it was implemented to harm black people.

Okay. So I hope that's cleared up. It's not institutional racism being debated. I think Aplo's assertion is that the war on drugs primarily caused the destruction of the nuclear family because of increased incarceration of black people, and largely for minor crimes. I think the graph supports his claim as I understand it, at least that it is a major factor. There are many factors. The war on drugs is responsible for more than just one. Not only does the war on drugs take the man out of the family because of incarceration, it creates a cycle of escalating crime. It creates a black market which invites the formation of gangs into the areas. They sell more drugs. More people are arrested. More people go to jail. Young people grow up without a dad. Moms get hooked on drugs. Kids grow up without a sense of belonging and they turn to gangs. But the welfare state is also a contributing factor. It rewards having lots of kids and it rewards fatherless families. I suspect that the welfare state and the war on drugs was a one-two punch. Sort of a synergistic relationship that helps create a positive feedback loop which destroys families and then by extension the communities they live in.

Where I was going with that (hence the mention of statistics) was the fact that incarceration disproportionately affected men is no more an indication of sexism then that incarceration disproportionately affecting blacks was an indication that it was racist. That whole correlation/causation thing people have so much trouble with

Oh, look! The share of wealth of the top decile in the US spiked in step with incarceration. Obviously putting more people in prison made the rich richer

View attachment 89587

Also, I'm not the one who dragged race into the discussion

 

[Alpo]

It isn't racial per se. But, in its implementation, there can be no doubt that the incarceration of those on the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum, in all races, suffered disproportionately from said war. Poor men go to prison. Rich men go to a diversion program and back to work. The penalties for crack vs powder cocaine ("100-to-1 crack versus powder cocaine sentencing disparity under which distribution of just 5 grams of crack carries a minimum 5-year federal prison sentence, while distribution of 500 grams of powder cocaine carries the same 5-year mandatory minimum sentence.") and other inappropriate laws contributed as well.

I've made all of the points I need to at this juncture. I'm not here to argue drug policy. This was an observation on the breakdown of the nuclear family at the lower end of the economic spectrum. Clearly, there are many other factors, but drug policy is a very difficult one to ignore.

 

[jamil]

Where I was going with that (hence the mention of statistics) was the fact that incarceration disproportionately affected men is no more an indication of sexism then that incarceration disproportionately affecting blacks was an indication that it was racist. That whole correlation/causation thing people have so much trouble with

Oh, look! The share of wealth of the top decile in the US spiked in step with incarceration. Obviously putting more people in prison made the rich richer



Also, I'm not the one who dragged race into the discussion

C'mon Bug. He said that the increased incarceration of black men had a large impact on the nuclear family in black communities. His chart wasn't to prove that the war on drugs was racist. That's something you inferred. It was just to show what event coincided with the uptick in fatherless homes in the black communities.

 

[jamil]

It isn't racial per se. But, in its implementation, there can be no doubt that the incarceration of those on the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum, in all races, suffered disproportionately from said war. Poor men go to prison. Rich men go to a diversion program and back to work. The penalties for crack vs powder cocaine ("100-to-1 crack versus powder cocaine sentencing disparity under which distribution of just 5 grams of crack carries a minimum 5-year federal prison sentence, while distribution of 500 grams of powder cocaine carries the same 5-year mandatory minimum sentence.") and other inappropriate laws contributed as well.

I've made all of the points I need to at this juncture. I'm not here to argue drug policy. This was an observation on the breakdown of the nuclear family at the lower end of the economic spectrum. Clearly, there are many other factors, but drug policy is a very difficult one to ignore.

Well plus, in the poor white communities, meth heads were so busy blowing themselves up with their one-pot shake-n-bakes, they're no longer around to be arrested. Also, I don't know why. But poor white druggie families seem to go to jail together.

 

[BugI02]

C'mon Bug. He said that the increased incarceration of black men had a large impact on the nuclear family in black communities. His chart wasn't to prove that the war on drugs was racist. That's something you inferred. It was just to show what event coincided with the uptick in fatherless homes in the black communities.

I would refer you to #1846, line 3

 

[jamil]

I would refer you to #1846, line 3

Some people always assume there is a complex agenda underneath. Sometimes the chart should be allowed to speak for itself before the "Yah Butts" show up.

Incarcerations of over 2 million souls is an indictment of our drug policies and our "tough on crime" approach. Where it started is pretty obvious on the chart.

ps. I didn't bother to put incarceration by race graphs up. That would have made a YahButt head explode.

Where’s the claim of racism?

 

[Tombs]

It's only "racist" because cultural Marxists like to redefine words. But that doesn't mean that for various reasons a policy inherently has a higher impact one one or more racial groups more than others. That's not racist, that's not intentional. It's what it is. It doesn't mean that black people use drugs more than other people. But because of various reasons it affects that community in ways that it doesn't affect others. And possibly that could have something to do with past racism. I think during Jim Crow it would make a lot of people bitter. And that might contribute to the problem. But I'm not black. And I really don't know the culture enough to say. That's all speculation. But the drug war does seem to have affected black communities a hell of a lot more than many white communities.

Poor white communities have similar problems, so I suspect it has correlation with poverty.

If drug use is largely equal, wouldn't the logical conclusion you have to infer be that police are racist, if the former is true? (P.S. I'm not saying this and don't believe it, just pointing out what that reasoning leads to.)
There's far more poor white people in the country, as a number, than there are poor black people.

I think information deeply critical to this discussion is missing.

 

[Alpo]

If drug use is largely equal, wouldn't the logical conclusion you have to infer be that police are racist, if the former is true? (P.S. I'm not saying this and don't believe it, just pointing out what that reasoning leads to.)
There's far more poor white people in the country, as a number, than there are poor black people.

I think information deeply critical to this discussion is missing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crack_epidemic_in_the_United_States