watch out my car was just car shopped

[aikidoka]

Walking away? So you pulled your gun on someone who had their back to you? How was this person a threat???

 

[38special]

So...the pointing of a firearm at someone is illegal UNLESS someone feels it is reasonably necessary to stop someone from stealing their property.

However, They can't SHOOT the other person UNLESS that person threatens them with SBI.

Shooting someone's tire or window is the same as using deadly force just the same as it woiuld be if you "just shot them in the leg to scare them". If you can't legally use deadly force, you can't shoot in their direction either.

Here is a (somewhat) recent thread about pretty much this exact scenario.

https://www.indianagunowners.com/forums/carry_...shoot_him.html

For people to rant on about how stupid or irresponsible the OP is or how he should not carry is fairly unproductive.

Look up the laws & have a reasonable debate.

I personally don't think it was the best decision to run after the person on foot when they were in a car (from a tactical standpoint). Trolling around the neighborhood to see if you could find the guys is not a bad thing. I mean, you are an eyewitness to the guy & the car. Who better to notify the police where they are if you can find them. Confronting them after you found them...not so much.

You're missing the point of that law. Pointing a firearm at someone for *MAYBE* breaking a window is NOT "reasonable force". It's deadly force, and an immature decision to make about a stupid piece of property.

I don't care how much of a scumbag he is - his life is worth more than $300 replacing a window or any materials inside.

The OP needs to learn from this experience and evaluate his reaction next time. Don't get defensive or mad at people here - learn from it and DO NOT pull a gun on someone who isn't threatening your life or that of people around you. It's a poor decision and one you'll likely regret.

Read the law as I posted above.

The LAW says that it is OK if necessary to prevent criminal interference with your property. Stealing & destruction counts as criminal interference. Your opinion about the MORALITY of pulling a gun on someone over property is your opinion. the LAW is the LAW.

You can use reasonable force. Pointing a gun is defined as reasonable force. You can point a gun at them. you just can't shoot unless they threaten SBI.

If you disagree then show me in the LAW where the above contradicted.

Where exactly does it define pointing a gun as reasonable force? Guess I missed that one. Pointing a gun to protect your life is reasonable force. Pointing a gun because someone may have cost you a couple hundred bucks? NOT reasonable force.

As to the law?! Abortion is legal. Doesn't make it OK in my book.

this^
I just dont think you should pull your firearm unless you plan on squeezing the trigger. you pull you pistol and you have a good chance of the other person pulling one as well...then you just initiated a shoot out over someone stealing your bubble gum...I mean it is against the LAW to swipe someones bubble gum.

EXACTLY. It's property and it is NOT worth taking a life or putting yourself into such a dangerous situation.



Learn from this situation. We've all done stupid things so I'm not about to sit on my high horse and say I've never done anything dumb - I have. But I sat and thought about it later, and learned from it. I feel like I'm more mature and capable because of it.

With a pull-out-the-gun attitude, you will be dangerous to yourself and those around you and have no business with a firearm.

Carrying a deadly weapon is a serious responsibility. I have NEVER pulled out my gun on someone and won't unless I feel threatened. Not for a stupid car. It's not worth it.

 

[38special]

I'll add this too - reading through this thread makes me very happy to be a part of this community.

Yes, some were a bit harsh (at least more than I like to be), but this is a serious situation and sometimes justifies it.

Looks to me like most of this thread is representative of MOST of the gun community and those with LTCH. We are responsible, mature individuals that understand the responsibility we have and are not quick to draw down on someone in a stupid situation.

Makes me proud to be part of INGO!

 

[BloodEclipse]

I'll add this too - reading through this thread makes me very happy to be a part of this community.

Yes, some were a bit harsh (at least more than I like to be), but this is a serious situation and sometimes justifies it.

Looks to me like most of this thread is representative of MOST of the gun community and those with LTCH. We are responsible, mature individuals that understand the responsibility we have and are not quick to draw down on someone in a stupid situation.

Makes me proud to be part of INGO!

I completely agree.
Learning from our mistakes makes us who we are.
This situation ended better than it could have. Everyone is safe.
This thread may have helped educate more than just the OP. We get many people who read but not post in these threads and we may have opened some eyes.
INGO is a great community.

 

[1032JBT]

I actually had my wife read the OP just to see what she thought about the situation. Keep in mind she is not anti-gun, but I wouldn't say she is pro-gun either. I think she merely tolerates them because of me. After reading this her only real reaction was, "Really?!?!? This is the kind of thing that scares me. Knowing there are poeple out there that are carrying guns on them and would act in this way REALLY scares me."

She also brought up something to me that I honestly didn't see the first time because I didn't read the entire OP, sorry, I was to revolted to finish it. I will quote it paragraph:


"Well after stopping a cop and telling him what happens we get a phone call from 3 of my other friends saying that they chased him to a trailer park over on madison and thompson right by that bridge called long view or long horn or something of that nature. Well the messed up thing about it was they werent there anymore none of them had their phone on them so they couldnt call us to let us know......."


The OP said that his 3 other friends called him to tell him they had followed the car and a partial license plate, but yet later said when he got there they were gone and couldnt call them back because none of them had a phone with them. I personally wouldn't mind some clarification to this. If you can't type out a story on an internet forum without "mixing" things up like that or saying it more clear than that, how are you going to be able to tell your side of the story after the "incident" to police........esp if it went to a shooting incident.


I honestly don't belive the cop told him to shoot out the tire, not saying it didn't happen......I just don't belive the OP when he says who said it. I have no doubts it was said, just not by the cop, more like by one of his "buddies".


One other thing.......please remember this discussion the next time the disarming an LTCH conversation takes place. It's because of LTCH holders like the OP why a lot of officer's will do it every single time. Yes I know this is just one incident and I'm sure a very small portion of the LTCH community, but just as small is the number of people that would come on to a gun board.......yes it's still a gun board (sorry I had too)......and actually post something like this. While I will agree all day everyday that the chances of running into an LTCH'er this bad are slim, it only takes one to ruin my day or my family's lives. Just food for thought not trying to start up another war.

 

[RelicHound]

I really dont think there is any truth to this story anyway...he probably stayed up all night playin cards with his buddy and had a few to many adult bevrages and decided to get on here and make up a story so that we all think he is a cool action hero..atleast I hope Im correct.

 

[samot]

I really dont think there is any truth to this story anyway...he probably stayed up all night playin cards with his buddy and had a few to many adult bevrages and decided to get on here and make up a story so that we all think he is a cool action hero..atleast I hope Im correct.

+1

 

[kingnereli]

I really dont think there is any truth to this story anyway...he probably stayed up all night playin cards with his buddy and had a few to many adult bevrages and decided to get on here and make up a story so that we all think he is a cool action hero..atleast I hope Im correct.

That was my initial thought when I read the OP. There are just too many ways he should have had the police called on him. It isn't believable that he ran down the street with a gun in his hand, pointed it at a stranger and followed a car around town without someone bringing it to the attention of the police.

 

[RelicHound]

That was my initial thought when I read the OP. There are just too many ways he should have had the police called on him. It isn't believable that he ran down the street with a gun in his hand, pointed it at a stranger and followed a car around town without someone bringing it to the attention of the police.

especially in an apartment complex...I live in an an apartment and if someone farts loud enough outside I hear it..if someone was running, yelling/cursing I sure as heck would peek out the window to see what was going on,and if I seen someone being chased with a gun Id for sure call the police.

 

[CyberGuyPR]

Great thread. Nothing better than real world situations for us to dissect apart and learn from them.

To OP: I join the ranks of those who recommended attending armed self-defense training. Knowledge of the law will draw the line between you being a free man or an inmate. As you proved, when a high tension moment comes you will not have time to think in detail about the best course of action. You must embed in your memory what really involves a threat on your life (or loved ones) that justifies self defense. By regularly training you develop skills that will help allow you to identify a threat and the appropriate course of action in nanoseconds. In addition, if you have to make your case in front of a jury, I am positive it will help presenting yourself as a properly trained and responsible citizen .

Please, get training today. There are superb training opportunities year round everywhere in Indiana. I promised myself not to buy guns this year and attend a couple of courses. Stay safe. Stay out of jail.

 

[kludge]

IC 35-41-1-7
"Deadly force" defined
Sec. 7. "Deadly force" means force that creates a substantial risk of serious bodily injury.


IC 35-41-1-25
"Serious bodily injury" defined
Sec. 25. "Serious bodily injury" means bodily injury that creates a substantial risk of death or that causes:
(1) serious permanent disfigurement; (2) unconsciousness;
(3) extreme pain;
(4) permanent or protracted loss or impairment of the function of a bodily member or organ; or
(5) loss of a fetus.

IC 35-41-1-11
"Forcible felony" defined
Sec. 11. "Forcible felony" means a felony that involves the use or threat of force against a human being, or in which there is imminent danger of bodily injury to a human being.

IC 35-41-1-4
"Bodily injury" defined
Sec. 4. "Bodily injury" means any impairment of physical condition, including physical pain.

.
.
.

Now that we know the definitions...

.
.
.

IC 35-41-3-2
Use of force to protect person or property
Sec. 2. (a) A person is justified in using reasonable force against another person to protect the person or a third person from what the person reasonably believes to be the imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person:
(1) is justified in using deadly force; and
(2) does not have a duty to retreat;
if the person reasonably believes that that force is necessary to prevent serious bodily injury to the person or a third person OR the commission of a forcible felony. No person in this state shall be placed in legal jeopardy of any kind whatsoever for protecting the person or a third person by reasonable means necessary.

.
.
.

(emphasis mine)

I just mention this because who knows which kick or punch to the gut or head will result in "serious bodily injury" and opposed to just "physical pain".

Indiana Code for self-defense covers both "serious bodily injury" and "forcible felony" and "forcible felony" covers "use" and "threat" of force that would cause "any impairment of physical condition, including physical pain."

So now we are left with what is "reasonable" and that is subject to interpretation.

If a 4th grader threatens to "kick my @$$" that's one thing, if a 22 year old threatens it, that's another thing entirely.

 

[ddenny5]

This situation could have gotten you in a lot of trouble. They could have pressed charges and turned the situation against you. There is no reason to risk your life or someone else for a broken window. I would have stayed by my car and called the police. My gun would stay in its holster. I have been in only one self defense situation. I had two guys pull out a knife on me and demanded my wallet. I put my hand on the handle of my glock and said I was armed. I never drew my gun although I may have been right in doing so. They ran away and I called the police. They were caught not long after and they had just robbed a 70 year old woman. We need responsible gun ownership. We do not need to give the Brady nut heads any ammunition.

 

[Speed Kills]

I'd like to thank the random person for the negative rep from this thread, and maintain my standpoint that this was a boneheaded move, not surprising to me from the OP's username.

 

[pinshooter45]

He's right!

Not a legal shoot. Your life or the life of others was not in jeopardy. Now if you had been in the vehicle when they broke in that is a different game altogether. Drawing your weapon in this instance was probably not a good idea either. I would also rethink some of what you have posted and clean it up a bit before someone quotes you.

If you look up Indiana code. You may only use deadly force in defence of you life or the life of another, not property. But I think I might have been tempted to put one in the ground to make some noise and scare the you know what out of them! as long as I could do it and not harm any bystanders.

 

[00BlasterResto]

Originally Posted by RelicHound
I really dont think there is any truth to this story anyway...he probably stayed up all night playin cards with his buddy and had a few to many adult bevrages and decided to get on here and make up a story so that we all think he is a cool action hero..atleast I hope Im correct.

That was my initial thought when I read the OP. There are just too many ways he should have had the police called on him. It isn't believable that he ran down the street with a gun in his hand, pointed it at a stranger and followed a car around town without someone bringing it to the attention of the police.

I would like to think, however I have seen some pretty interesting things.
If he was in South Bend I am not sure the cops would have been called had he unloaded.
There are some things in the OP that made me grin though, the big one off the top of my head was (i was close enought to reach my hand out and clear off snow from his licence plate but i couldnt get all of it off. )

 

[dburkhead]

I had to edit my posting up there. I left off some factors for the Serious bodily injury code...sorry.

Well yes and no. A punch to the face/gut by its self won't be enough. You will need more. Loss of consciousness is enough (per JV vs. State of Indiana Cause No. 20C01-0903-JD-123 Dec 22,2009). However in Davis v. State, 813 N.E.2d 1176 (Ind. 2004), where the court unanimously agreed that evidence of a slightly lacerated lip, an abrasion to the knee, and a broken pinky finger was insufficient to support the finding of “serious bodily injury.”

One doesn't have to suffer SBI to justify deadly force. The reasonable threat of SBI is sufficient. "Disparity of force" has traditionally been a factor in determining that threat. If someone is significantly larger/stronger than you, or you have reason to believe they have significant training/skill in fighting (a middleweight boxer or MMA champ could probably mop the floor with me despite being smaller and despite my Judo experience), or if there are multiple attackers against one of you then one can justify deadly force. You will, however, likely have to convince a prosecutor or (in the extreme case) a jury that a reasonable individual, knowing what you knew at the time, would be in fear of death or Serious Bodily Injury.

 

[Pale Rider]

Where has the OP gone??? I'd like to get more of his answers and rebuttal to all of this. See where his head is at now concerning this situation (true or fictional) it's still a learning experience for him and us.

After reading this far I think we're all in agreement it wasn't a good reaction...
Would not have been a "Good Shoot"...
Training and reflection are needed...
Posting on the internet about a possibly illegal act is not smart...
The indiana code has been citied multiple times to back up a lot of this...

But where do we go now? What else is there to learn, and how can we continue to keep this thread on topic and still productive?... gonna pm the OP and see if he'll come back and throw more of his in... if we haven't scared him off...

 

[Greg.B]

I'd like to thank the random person for the negative rep from this thread, and maintain my standpoint that this was a boneheaded move, not surprising to me from the OP's username.

Wow; I didn't see anything from you for a negative rep...

I've got to agree...without more info from the OP, your impression seems right on. We'll just have to wait and see if he returns to the thread to shed some light on the issues raised.

 

[dburkhead]

I really dont think there is any truth to this story anyway...he probably stayed up all night playin cards with his buddy and had a few to many adult bevrages and decided to get on here and make up a story so that we all think he is a cool action hero..atleast I hope Im correct.

Meh. Still lead to some good discussion.

 

[Cygnus]

Where has the OP gone??? .

Chicken huntin' or to patrol the mean streets of Novi

Duh!