Virginia woman buys 31 guns in two weeks.

[williamsburg]

I read that yesterday but haven't seen any discussion of it anywhere, either.

Wow, huh? That would seem to be a pretty clear case of either straw buying or the unlicensed operation of a firearms dealership. I have to say that I'm often amazed at the number of unlicensed people who appear to be selling for profit. Maybe I'm just paranoid because I work in criminal law, but I'm astonished that folks would do something that easily proven. FWIW, I always try to make sure that I sell any firearm that I haven't had for years and years (and most of them, too) at a demonstrable loss (even a one-dollar loss - no reason to go crazy here) so as to be able to counter any such claim.

This will probably not attract mainstream media attention because it is not "assault rifles". And it shows that current laws work if enforced properly. Everybody knows current gun laws do not work.
I'm amazed how she could buy 31 handguns and turn for profit with the prices elevated the way they are at the moment. I went to a show recently and all prices were inflated. Glock G4's were around $650-$700 without night sites. Seen an XDm-9 for $700-$800 and one that was listed "with 20 round capacity, soon to be outlawed" by another dealer.

 

[LANShark42]

I've heard about them. I'll have to make a trip to West Loiusville. It's about time to eat at Moonlite any way. Haven't been THERE is a while...

Except for that whole "We're going to report you to the ATF if you decide you don't like the gun we sold you" thing.

If you haven't done anything wrong, what fear is there in that threat?

 

[Scutter01]

.
I'm amazed how she could buy 31 handguns and turn for profit with the prices elevated the way they are at the moment.

Depends on her clientele. I wouldn't be surprised to see a few charges added on for selling to a felon.

 

[Scutter01]

If you haven't done anything wrong, what fear is there in that threat?

On the whole, I'd prefer not to do business with someone like that. It doesn't matter if I've done anything wrong or not. And if I haven't done anything wrong, why are they reporting me?

 

[pudly]

INGO already disallows selling as a business if you are not an advertiser. When a seller comes to the attention of the staff as someone who may be buying or selling in violation of the law, the response to inquiries is, universally, a polite but firm "get bent". INGO has always been careful to maintain a neutral position on classified use. We're not the police and it's not up to INGO to track your sales. So, you're on your own. If you get popped, it's your own fault.

Understood, but I'd bet that a lot of these people simply don't think of what they are doing as a "business". They don't have a store front or FFL, so they can't be a business, right? I'll understand if INGO doesn't do anything, but I believe that saving a couple of people from getting hurt would be well worth it.

 

[Scutter01]

Understood, but I'd bet that a lot of these people simply don't think of what they are doing as a "business". They don't have a store front or FFL, so they can't be a business, right? I'll understand if INGO doesn't do anything, but I believe that saving a couple of people from getting hurt would be well worth it.

I think a tiny percentage of them don't realize what they're doing (and, in fact, those are the ones who really aren't buying and selling for profit), but in my experience of interacting with them as a mod, the vast majority know exactly what they're doing. They just don't think they'll get caught.

 

[pudly]

Sigh... In that case, I have to agree with you. If they didn't know, that is one thing. However, you were in a better position to see that many are doing it knowingly.

 

[williamsburg]

Good point. I hate to recommend another sticky, but maybe a note about private selling as a business should be highlighted somehow for the sellers. It won't eliminate the problem, but it might cut down at least some of it and save those individuals from their own ignorance. Something along the lines of "Want to avoid getting into trouble with the law for using these classifieds? Please read." might get people's attention.

Maybe not another "sticky" but why can it not be posted at the very top of this rules post as a rule, a notice and I think it would double as a legal disclaimer of sorts as well.
Something like this?

"BE ADVISED THAT SELLING FOR PROFIT OR OPERATING AS A BUSINESS WITHOUT THE APPROPRIATE LICENSE MAY RESULT IN DIRECT CONTACT FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT/ATF.
ALSO IF INGO, LLC FEELS THAT YOU ARE USING THIS FORUM FOR SUCH ACTIVITY YOU MAY BE RESTRICTED WITHOUT NOTICE."

After all I like INGO. It's a great place for knowledge and discussion with fellow gun owners and like minds. I would hate for one or two people to mess up everything for the rest of us.

 

[Double T]

A company that will report someone to the ATF for one after purchase transaction, regardless of intent, is no friend of the second amendment or yours.

 

[Cowboy71]

A company that will report someone to the ATF for one after purchase transaction, regardless of intent, is no friend of the second amendment or yours.

No kidding.

A lot of anti-capitalism in this thread. Some of you fit right in with Obama's regulate anything and everything to death mentality.

 

[pudly]

Maybe not another "sticky" but why can it not be posted at the very top of this rules post as a rule, a notice and I think it would double as a legal disclaimer of sorts as well.
Something like this?

"BE ADVISED THAT SELLING FOR PROFIT OR OPERATING AS A BUSINESS WITHOUT THE APPROPRIATE LICENSE MAY RESULT IN DIRECT CONTACT FROM LAW ENFORCEMENT/ATF.
ALSO IF INGO, LLC FEELS THAT YOU ARE USING THIS FORUM FOR SUCH ACTIVITY YOU MAY BE RESTRICTED WITHOUT NOTICE."

After all I like INGO. It's a great place for knowledge and discussion with fellow gun owners and like minds. I would hate for one or two people to mess up everything for the rest of us.

I think this is better than a sticky, but INGO might want to avoid inserting itself and committing to this kind of intervention. They could instead have a note that this is a legal issue and not an INGO issue. I'm not terribly concerned about people who do it knowingly. However, those who see it as an opportunity and don't know any better could benefit from the warning.

 

[atvdave]

Except for that whole "We're going to report you to the ATF if you decide you don't like the gun we sold you" thing.

What they are trying to stop is someone like the lady in the OP. You purchase a gun for the sole purpose to sale the next day for profit.

example: You buy a AR for $900 from them, and the next day the same gun is on gunbroker for $1800 (New never fired).

And also if you have only done this once, I'm no lawyer but I don't think the ATF can do much about that. However if you have done it a few times in the past week, or month... That's a different story..

 

[churchmouse]

I've noticed that as well and wondered about a few. While I've made a number of deals through the classifieds myself from time to time on INGO I rarely sell anything for a profit. As a matter of fact I've given someone a very good deal on quite a few different items.

That is me in a "Nutshell"
I might break even on the gun but loose my tail on the ammo I include in the deal. I will never do that again.
I just sell/trade to change the safe contents and experience different guns and calibers.

 

[churchmouse]

No kidding.

A lot of anti-capitalism in this thread. Some of you fit right in with Obama's regulate anything and everything to death mentality.

See it as you will. I guess if not in agreement with this activity we just hunt them down and bludgeon them/ I am down for delivering a good bludgeoning to those I deem in need.

That is not what we as a group are saying, just do not put us in jeopardy so you/they can make a buck. Settle down and see it for what it is.

 

[VERT]

There is a lot of talk about the "gun show loophole". There is no loophole. We have laws on the books and they have not been enforced in the past. I predict the "private dealers" operating businesses illegally will start getting popped.

 

[Scutter01]

I think this is better than a sticky, but INGO might want to avoid inserting itself and committing to this kind of intervention. They could instead have a note that this is a legal issue and not an INGO issue. I'm not terribly concerned about people who do it knowingly. However, those who see it as an opportunity and don't know any better could benefit from the warning.

Actually, there are several stickies like that and they are routinely bumped and generally ignored. One is about selling to out-of-state purchasers, another is about making threats against public officials or inciting violence. Some people have been banned and were completely shocked when they were told why. People do not read stickies.

 

[churchmouse]

Actually, there are several stickies like that and they are routinely bumped and generally ignored. One is about selling to out-of-state purchasers, another is about making threats against public officials or inciting violence. Some people have been banned and were completely shocked when they were told why. People do not read stickies.

Believe me Scutter, their shock was an act at best. If you read at all you know whats up. I have seen folks be warned openly on several occasions and then they are gone. They do not heed good advice. Simple as that.

 

[pudly]

Actually, there are several stickies like that and they are routinely bumped and generally ignored. One is about selling to out-of-state purchasers, another is about making threats against public officials or inciting violence. Some people have been banned and were completely shocked when they were told why. People do not read stickies.

Sorry. On this I will disagree. You've encountered the ones who don't read the stickies/FAQs. There are many who do and those are the ones who can be helped. As you are well aware, no rule/law/etc will stop a problem 100%, but when designed and communicated properly, they do help to reduce the problem. None of the current stickies/FAQs/rules/etc cover this situation. Adding it in a way that doesn't add too much clutter is a good idea.

 

[williamsburg]

There is a LGS down here that never raised their prices on guns, and posted on their FB page that they do look at some on line gun classifieds. If they see one of their guns go up for sale in the few days after the sale, they will notify the ATF.

If you haven't done anything wrong, what fear is there in that threat?

On the whole, I'd prefer not to do business with someone like that. It doesn't matter if I've done anything wrong or not. And if I haven't done anything wrong, why are they reporting me?

A company that will report someone to the ATF for one after purchase transaction, regardless of intent, is no friend of the second amendment or yours.

If you have buyers remorse or as life sometimes happens you need the money for something more important. Seems to happen after you just spent it. Then why not sell it. They legally transferred it to you, it's yours.

Every shop I've been in says "All Sales Final" so that's meaining final. It's not up to a shop to police the ads and report you. It's not thier website that you are selling on. They are not liable for what you do with it after the sale. They were cut out of the liability once the 4473/NICS check said they could transfer to you. That's why they are given an approval number that they must record on the 4473.

But if you are using a third party site (INGO, Armslist, HoosierTopics, etc.) then that site can write the TOS or UA as they see fit. If they feel your behavior is abusing the use of such site by operating without a license or relisting bought items continuously (meaning it was listed by person a now listed by person b) for a higher asking price then they can take action as they see fit.

 

[arthrimus]

I am shocked by the statist bile that has been spewing from the posters in this thread. Why the hell does the ATF have any say in what I choose to do with my own money, and the firearms that I may purchase with it?

Just before Sandy Hook, I happened to purchased a 1911 from an LGS, I was in love with it while at the store, but after a couple of days, I knew It wasn't the 1911 I wanted so I sold it. What business does my LGS have reporting me for not liking the gun they sold me? It's MINE, I can do with it whatever I WANT!

I will never do business with an LGS that enables the ATF on any level other than the basics required to maintain their FFL and stay in business.