SirRealism
Master
- Nov 17, 2008
- 1,779
- 38
I usually don't stick my neck too far into these threads. I rarely have something to add that hasn't already been said at length. But this thread, in particular, has really surprised me.
I'm not sure why some are making such a stink over the trust issue. We all want to "get home safely", and, whether we admit it or not, we all judge unknown people out on the street based on our experiences (both first-hand and second-hand). Those unknown people we meet on the street can impact whether we get home with our limbs and our rights intact. I don't expect anyone (LEO or otherwise) who has no history with me to trust me. However, if you meet me on the street, you can act like a gentleman without trusting me... as can I. If you treat me like a human and within the rule of law, I couldn't care less whether you trust me.
YouTube has given us a window into many parts of society that most of us would not typically get to see. We see gang-style beatdowns of unarmed, harmless individuals leaving downtown bars. And we see instances of egregious abuse of authority by some in LE. In both cases, we often see individuals standing behind the criminals in a manner that defies logic and humanity. Yes, we see condemnation, as well; we expect and appreciate that. But when we see support for criminals — whether that support is for a "good grandson that just needs after-school activities", or for a rogue cop that went on a rampage against and violated the rights of an innocent guy — our so-called trust in that community is shaken to its core. It affects how we estimate the likelihood of a threat posed by interaction with individuals in that community.
It's all about risk assessment.
For the LE community specifically, YouTube has helped us understand that there is a huge disparity between how good cops and bad cops act. We have always been exposed to bits of the good stuff, through news, personal interaction, etc. And we've seen "bad cops" on TV shows... but they were mostly fictional. Few of us have seen the really bad cops before now. And now, with video evidence, we can see whether the story was true as reported... or whether it just some gang-banger claiming the cop hurt him as he was fleeing a crime scene.
As with all issues like this, I wonder whether the negative instances are rising, or whether the reporting of them is rising. Or both. It doesn't really matter, because reality is reality. I think the problem we face now (in the relationship betwee LE and the community) is that more of us in the community now see things that turn our stomach on a regular basis. And, yeah, it puts us on the defensive... afraid of meeting that Canton PD POS.
I don't know what the likelihood is of meeting someone like that, but I have to take it into consideration. I'm not going to treat every LEO like he was the Canton officer (whatever his name is). I'll treat him with respect until he doesn't return the favor.
I said "so-called trust" earlier because it's not real trust. Trust typically happens between two individuals with an existing relationship. But between two individuals with no history, there is no true trust. There is only a preconceived notion of how someone might conduct himself based on very limited knowledge.
Saying that I trust cops I've never met would be as much of a generalization as saying I do not.
If a cop sees a trend of violence against LE perpetrated by a certain section of society, I would fully expect him or her to be more cautious in that environment. Trust doesn't enter into it. It's purely a numbers game... just like the stock market... except that it's his life, not just his money, at stake.
I've met cops from this board, and I'm pretty sure the ones I've met aren't going to be on the giving end of an undeserved beatdown. The same applies to the ones I've seen online on INGO, but not met in person. That's great; we need more like you. It's unfortunate that your job will be more difficult after each rogue cop video goes viral. But it will.
However, I think that knowledge is power, and I'm glad that people are recording these interactions. It exposes abuse and helps hold the abusers accountable. All this stuff (the abuses and the viral exposure) isn't going away any time soon. But there are a couple ways that both sides can work to improve the situation:
As others have said, LEOs must make some hard choices to call out and expose the abuses that they witness. I would like to think good cops would do this without the leverage of video evidence. In fact, that's part of my definition of a good cop.
The non-LE community needs to put pressure on the city and LE brass to hold rogue officers and the complicit witnesses accountable. We are doing this by contacting Canton PD, the mayor's office, and even the visitors' bureau. We must also continue to treat individual LEOs with respect and humanity — any one of them might be the one saving our necks the next night.
Personally, though, I have to admit that the situations like we've seen with the Canton PD, and the unforutnate reactions we've seen from annonymous LEOs out there on other forums, have affected me such that my interactions with LEOs will be MUCH more cautious and reserved. I always try to be friendly and courteous, but I'm definitely going to be less inclined to chat or provide any information outside that which is necessary for the encounter.
It's not that I don't trust any individual LEO. But I am the sole keeper of my rights and my safety. It's my responsibility, not yours.
All IMO, of course.
I'm not sure why some are making such a stink over the trust issue. We all want to "get home safely", and, whether we admit it or not, we all judge unknown people out on the street based on our experiences (both first-hand and second-hand). Those unknown people we meet on the street can impact whether we get home with our limbs and our rights intact. I don't expect anyone (LEO or otherwise) who has no history with me to trust me. However, if you meet me on the street, you can act like a gentleman without trusting me... as can I. If you treat me like a human and within the rule of law, I couldn't care less whether you trust me.
YouTube has given us a window into many parts of society that most of us would not typically get to see. We see gang-style beatdowns of unarmed, harmless individuals leaving downtown bars. And we see instances of egregious abuse of authority by some in LE. In both cases, we often see individuals standing behind the criminals in a manner that defies logic and humanity. Yes, we see condemnation, as well; we expect and appreciate that. But when we see support for criminals — whether that support is for a "good grandson that just needs after-school activities", or for a rogue cop that went on a rampage against and violated the rights of an innocent guy — our so-called trust in that community is shaken to its core. It affects how we estimate the likelihood of a threat posed by interaction with individuals in that community.
It's all about risk assessment.
For the LE community specifically, YouTube has helped us understand that there is a huge disparity between how good cops and bad cops act. We have always been exposed to bits of the good stuff, through news, personal interaction, etc. And we've seen "bad cops" on TV shows... but they were mostly fictional. Few of us have seen the really bad cops before now. And now, with video evidence, we can see whether the story was true as reported... or whether it just some gang-banger claiming the cop hurt him as he was fleeing a crime scene.
As with all issues like this, I wonder whether the negative instances are rising, or whether the reporting of them is rising. Or both. It doesn't really matter, because reality is reality. I think the problem we face now (in the relationship betwee LE and the community) is that more of us in the community now see things that turn our stomach on a regular basis. And, yeah, it puts us on the defensive... afraid of meeting that Canton PD POS.
I don't know what the likelihood is of meeting someone like that, but I have to take it into consideration. I'm not going to treat every LEO like he was the Canton officer (whatever his name is). I'll treat him with respect until he doesn't return the favor.
I said "so-called trust" earlier because it's not real trust. Trust typically happens between two individuals with an existing relationship. But between two individuals with no history, there is no true trust. There is only a preconceived notion of how someone might conduct himself based on very limited knowledge.
Saying that I trust cops I've never met would be as much of a generalization as saying I do not.
If a cop sees a trend of violence against LE perpetrated by a certain section of society, I would fully expect him or her to be more cautious in that environment. Trust doesn't enter into it. It's purely a numbers game... just like the stock market... except that it's his life, not just his money, at stake.
I've met cops from this board, and I'm pretty sure the ones I've met aren't going to be on the giving end of an undeserved beatdown. The same applies to the ones I've seen online on INGO, but not met in person. That's great; we need more like you. It's unfortunate that your job will be more difficult after each rogue cop video goes viral. But it will.
However, I think that knowledge is power, and I'm glad that people are recording these interactions. It exposes abuse and helps hold the abusers accountable. All this stuff (the abuses and the viral exposure) isn't going away any time soon. But there are a couple ways that both sides can work to improve the situation:
As others have said, LEOs must make some hard choices to call out and expose the abuses that they witness. I would like to think good cops would do this without the leverage of video evidence. In fact, that's part of my definition of a good cop.
The non-LE community needs to put pressure on the city and LE brass to hold rogue officers and the complicit witnesses accountable. We are doing this by contacting Canton PD, the mayor's office, and even the visitors' bureau. We must also continue to treat individual LEOs with respect and humanity — any one of them might be the one saving our necks the next night.
Personally, though, I have to admit that the situations like we've seen with the Canton PD, and the unforutnate reactions we've seen from annonymous LEOs out there on other forums, have affected me such that my interactions with LEOs will be MUCH more cautious and reserved. I always try to be friendly and courteous, but I'm definitely going to be less inclined to chat or provide any information outside that which is necessary for the encounter.
It's not that I don't trust any individual LEO. But I am the sole keeper of my rights and my safety. It's my responsibility, not yours.
All IMO, of course.
I wonder if the feeling i get after watching that video is the same feeling a Jew had in Nazi f-in Kraut Germany, or Warsaw, Poland. back in the late 1930's. ya it feels the same. 
