Vaccines and Autism

[17 squirrel]

 

[Expat]

I live in a Mennonite town, with Amish in the outskirts. They seem to have a higher than average number of cases of mental retardation and other genetic abnormalities. I think we can all it agree that it is likely due to not taking these vaccines... of course some say it is due to the closed genetic pool. But I think here on the INGO, we can all agree, it has to be vaccine related...

 

[steveh_131]

Mennonites do vaccinate.

 

[1DOWN4UP]

I worked in the Goshen area. I did notice that the Amish wear glasses more than the average person. I would assume the Gene pool may be smaller in that area. Also the men had beards more than the average....

 

[JettaKnight]

If your fear of germs is really this crippling, keep them home. You have every right to do so. You will never be able to control and/or assess the immune system function of other children. Do they eat enough vitamins? Do they eat too much sugar? Do they get enough sun? Exercise? All of these affect the immune response.

You're telling me that the reason a baby contracts whooping cough is too much sugar? Not because someone with an anti-authoritarian complex ignores the overwhelming evidence that these communicable diseases are far worse than the extremely low risk of autism from vaccines? And then you accuse Kirk of being mean spirited?

 

[churchmouse]

 

[CountryBoy19]

You're telling me that the reason a baby contracts whooping cough is too much sugar? Not because someone with an anti-authoritarian complex ignores the overwhelming evidence that these communicable diseases are far worse than the extremely low risk of autism from vaccines? And then you accuse Kirk of being mean spirited?

I don't think that is what he was/is saying. I also think you know exactly what he was saying and you're just trolling ...

 

[steveh_131]

You're telling me that the reason a baby contracts whooping cough is too much sugar?

A baby can contract whooping cough for a wide variety of reasons. Interestingly, vaccinated children may be the more risky carriers of the infection.

1. Yes, an unvaccinnated child could catch it and spread it. However, unvaccinated children demonstrate visible symptoms when they are infected and any intelligent parent could prevent contact with the sick child.

2. A vaccinated child can become infected with the pertussis virus and be a carrier of it, spreading it around to other children while being completely asymptomatic. [CDC Source]

3. Your baby could contract whooping cough due to widespread yet under-reported vaccine failure. Fully vaccinated populations are reporting outbreaks of the virus. [Source]


4. Yes, a poorly functioning immune system (due to bad nutrition) could contribute to this sort of vaccine failure or prevent a proper natural immune response to the pertussis virus. [source]

5. Yes, sugar consumption drags down the immune response as well. [Source]

Not because someone with an anti-authoritarian complex ignores the overwhelming evidence that these communicable diseases are far worse than the extremely low risk of autism from vaccines?

I would not suggest that anyone refuse vaccinations because of a fear of autism. I have stated several times already that I am unconvinced of any link between the two.

I would suggest that they consider the very real damaging and even fatal side effects of vaccines [FDA Source] and weigh them properly against the dangers of the diseases. I would suggest that they consider the bias of each source that they study and make a wise decision for themselves.

And then you accuse Kirk of being mean spirited?

I said nothing mean-spirited. My point is that it is very difficult to control the immune systems of the children around you. Vaccines don't cut it. I had a newborn who was immuno-compromised for several years of her life. We were cautious to keep her home whenever possible, and try to avoid visibly sick children... but there is only so much that you can do. Placing all of the blame for communicable diseases on kids who aren't fully vaccinated is silly.

 

[Alpo]

There are credible scientists who are able to adequately satisfy many people with their observations on creationism and/or intelligent design.

I have a good friend who believes that a host dropped by a priest in South America during service became organic muscle and supports the dogma of transfiguration.

Then we have the climate changers/deniers.

Now the anti-vaxxers.

I am not sure what point steve is arguing. Reading through this thread, I was confident he was on one side of the issue, then later appeared more ambivalent. Perhaps it's just the love of debate?

I read the scientist's article, then looked for other research, which is easy to do if one copies the article's title into google or google research. Here is just one article:

The point being that better diagnoses and definitions of autism have arisen over the years and causation/correlation can grab attention even though irrelevant.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/autism-prevalence-unchanged-in-20-years/

This latest study showing a stable autism prevalence between 1990 and 2010 is in line with a consilience of scientific evidence showing that autism is mostly genetic, has its onset prenataly, and that the apparent increase in prevalence is largely due to diagnostic substitution, increased surveillance, greater acceptance, and broadening of the diagnostic criteria.
Given all of this it is still possible that there is a real increase hiding in the data, although it must be small. It is further possible that there are environmental risk factors that affect the development of autism. Increasing parental age has been suggested as a factor, and this deserves further study. At present, however, there is no data clearly pointing to any specific environmental factor.

I wouldn't let a 7 year old walk around with an IED. I wouldn't want that 7 year old near my grandkids in the public school system. It's bad enough that kids bring ringworm and lice and bedbugs with them, not to mention that all kids seem to be walking petri dish germ generators.

I don't trust a 7 year old to make that decision. I don't trust the parents to make a deep scientific assessment of each individual vaccine. One need only look at the fotos of Wal-Mart denizens to have little faith in the sanity of their fellow man. If they want to attend school, they need to be vaccinated. If you wish to home school as an anti-vaxxer, that is your prerogative. Perhaps the kid won't make it through measles when they pop up in the future and that will solve our collective problem with your decision.

 

[halfmileharry]

I'm getting a kick out of our "source figures". We like to pick and choose the "facts" we put our faith and stock in.
Funny, when the same .gov spouts off the numbers we don't like about gun issues we seem to be able to refute their sources and facts.
Looks it's not only the anti-gun rhetoric that we like to debunk.

 

[Cygnus]

1UP,

I replied to your PM but your inbox is full.
Contact me when you get done with your travels.

 

[steveh_131]

I am not sure what point steve is arguing. Reading through this thread, I was confident he was on one side of the issue, then later appeared more ambivalent. Perhaps it's just the love of debate?

I am arguing that we have no idea what causes autism, and vaccines could be a factor. Maybe a tiny factor, maybe a big one, maybe none at all. I'm not going to immediately dismiss every piece of research that points to a possible link between them just because one doctor, at one time, might have done something dishonest when he claimed they did. That's ridiculous.

Vaccines can cause brain damage. Documented fact. Is it really so silly to think that they might cause more subtle damage that doesn't show up for a while, such as autism? No.

The point being that better diagnoses and definitions of autism have arisen over the years and causation/correlation can grab attention even though irrelevant.

I agree, correlations are nothing but a starting point. Does it stop the pro-vax folks from arguing that vaccines 'eradicated' polio? I've presented theories of many different potential causes for said eradication, if anything was even really eradicated. Nevertheless, polio declined when vaccines were introduced and this correlation has been the foundation of vaccine science for more than half a century.

I'm asking for consistency. I'm asking for an objective look at this. Not this religious fervor and rage towards anyone who questions the sacred institution of vaccines.

Perhaps the kid won't make it through measles when they pop up in the future and that will solve our collective problem with your decision.

Stay classy.

 

[Expat]

There are credible scientists who are able to adequately satisfy many people with their observations on creationism and/or intelligent design.

I have a good friend who believes that a host dropped by a priest in South America during service became organic muscle and supports the dogma of transfiguration.

Then we have the climate changers/deniers.

Now the anti-vaxxers.

I am not sure what point steve is arguing. Reading through this thread, I was confident he was on one side of the issue, then later appeared more ambivalent. Perhaps it's just the love of debate?

I read the scientist's article, then looked for other research, which is easy to do if one copies the article's title into google or google research. Here is just one article:

The point being that better diagnoses and definitions of autism have arisen over the years and causation/correlation can grab attention even though irrelevant.

https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/autism-prevalence-unchanged-in-20-years/



I wouldn't let a 7 year old walk around with an IED. I wouldn't want that 7 year old near my grandkids in the public school system. It's bad enough that kids bring ringworm and lice and bedbugs with them, not to mention that all kids seem to be walking petri dish germ generators.

I don't trust a 7 year old to make that decision. I don't trust the parents to make a deep scientific assessment of each individual vaccine. One need only look at the fotos of Wal-Mart denizens to have little faith in the sanity of their fellow man. If they want to attend school, they need to be vaccinated. If you wish to home school as an anti-vaxxer, that is your prerogative. Perhaps the kid won't make it through measles when they pop up in the future and that will solve our collective problem with your decision.

I wonder how a cell phone use graph would superimpose on that.

 

[steveh_131]

I don't see you guys superimposing silly things on this polilo chart:

Does this correlation mean anything to you? Or do you summarily dismiss it the same way you dismiss any that question your worldview?

 

[chezuki]

This thread likely causes autism.

 

[HoughMade]

This thread likely causes autism.

I don't know about that, but one of the primary causes of autism is the immensely expanded definition of autism.

 

[Expat]

I don't know about that, but one of the primary causes of autism is the immensely expanded definition of autism.

Can I get on some kind of draw then?

 

[mbills2223]

I don't see you guys superimposing silly things on this polilo chart:

Does this correlation mean anything to you? Or do you summarily dismiss it the same way you dismiss any that question your worldview?

This correlation is backed by science, hence the difference in how it is accepted.

 

[CountryBoy19]

I am arguing that we have no idea what causes autism, and vaccines could be a factor. Maybe a tiny factor, maybe a big one, maybe none at all. I'm not going to immediately dismiss every piece of research that points to a possible link between them just because one doctor, at one time, might have done something dishonest when he claimed they did. That's ridiculous.

Amen... gotta spread some rep around...

It's also not surprising that the usual INGO suspects are guilty of doing just what you outlined... the hypocrisy is pretty thick...

 

[steveh_131]

This correlation is backed by science, hence the difference in how it is accepted.

I would really appreciate it if you would detail what you mean by 'backed by science'.