Vaccines and Autism

[steveh_131]

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence in your statements, which I'm sure you are aware. The polio vaccines have been tested for over 60 years. Yes, there was a batch of live virus that went out during the initial Salk vaccination that caused polio in some children. Those processes were corrected. Was the campaign effective? Yes. Prove otherwise, please. With data and test results. Not anecdotes. Sabin's test showed that the live virus would result in 1 child in 1 million developing the disease. It was one of the reason that the USA returned to the Salk vaccine in the 90's. However, where injections aren't the optimum delivery method for certain parts of the world, the Sabin vaccine is still used.

I provided zero anecdotes. I already provided the source. Here it is again:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1961/03/05/page/62/article/the-truth-about-the-polio-vaccines

 

[Alpo]

That appears to be a newspaper. Where are your published studies?

 

[steveh_131]

For some reason, they didn't publish studies on the Internet in the 60's.

 

[Alpo]

And since there are no current studies to discredit polio vaccines...........it would seem that the defense rests.

 

[steveh_131]

We're not talking about current vaccines. We're trying to figure out if the old vaccine eradicated polio, or if it may have disappeared for other reasons. If you can't prove that, then you can't make the argument that it's going to come back if we don't all vaccinate.

 

[Alpo]

There is a sufficient body of research available that discredits your highly falsifiable hypothesis. You can spend the time to review it if you so choose. At this point, the discussion has degraded to argument and serves no purpose. I'm outta here.

 

[indiucky]

As a parent of a beautiful autistic child who makes me smile every day I hope one day we can prove vaccines caused this...That way I can send a thank you note to them for making my child just the way she is.....As it stands I think I just got lucky and blessed....

I may disagree with steveh on this but I do know his heart is in the right place and that his search for answers is noble...

Lord a two week ban and I have turned into a hippie...Might as well move to Broad Ripple and get my nipples pierced.......

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

As a parent of a beautiful autistic child who makes me smile every day I hope one day we can prove vaccines caused this...That way I can send a thank you note to them for making my child just the way she is.....As it stands I think I just got lucky and blessed....

I may disagree with steveh on this but I do know his heart is in the right place and that his search for answers is noble...

Lord a two week ban and I have turned into a hippie...Might as well move to Broad Ripple and get my nipples pierced.......

 

[HoughMade]

As a parent of a beautiful autistic child who makes me smile every day I hope one day we can prove vaccines caused this...That way I can send a thank you note to them for making my child just the way she is.....As it stands I think I just got lucky and blessed....

I may disagree with steveh on this but I do know his heart is in the right place and that his search for answers is noble...

Lord a two week ban and I have turned into a hippie...Might as well move to Broad Ripple and get my nipples pierced.......

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to indiucky again."

 

[JettaKnight]

You want to chant it with the rest of the herd? Go ahead. I want to see the proof. I don't trust someone because he's a doctor any more than I trust the guy fixing my car because he works at a shop. Neither one of them has my, or my children's best interests at heart. And protecting them is my job, and a far more important job than protecting my car.

Steve, you have seen the proof, you chose to ignore it in your vain attempt at, "opposing propaganda and dishonesty".


As to trust, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, "just because he has a medical degree doesn't mean he knows anything!"*, and then say, "She has a PhD so so her papers are valid!" Face it - you've chosen who you want to trust.

I'm not 'attacking' anyone. This is exactly the kind of religious fervor I'm talking about. When did I 'attack' anyone? Because I ask questions? Because I request reason and evidence when people make assertions?

Actually, to your credit, you're rather civil.



* Actually, it does. When someone gets a diploma there's evidence that yes, they do know a lot about the subject. And please, for the love of Pete, don't try and take us down the road of the failures of organized learning.

 

[JettaKnight]

I seriously don't understand this anti-authoritarian mindset. (I'm pointing at general society now) Where does it come from? Why is questioning and resisting conventional wisdom, experts, learned knowledge, Seasame Street, etc. now considered so noble? Even when it flies into the face of logic...

Question vaccines is good. It's good to be an involved your child's healthcare.
"Hey doc, are these vaccines safe?"
"Why yes, Mary they are. In fact, I've spent a lot of time looking at them."
"Well, gee doc, I don't just want to take your word for it."
"Sure, Mary, I understand. Here's some studies to read."

That's good.

This is bad:
"Well, doc, I read all those papers, but there's this one over here that says vaccines are bad..."
"Oh?"
"Yeah, and since you're wearing a tie and you say the same things the government and big pharma say, then I can't trust you..."
"Ugh..."
"The fact that almost everyone say vaccines are safe must mean they aren't safe because people are sheep..."
"I need to go see my next patient now.

 

[steveh_131]

There is a sufficient body of research available that discredits your highly falsifiable hypothesis. You can spend the time to review it if you so choose. At this point, the discussion has degraded to argument and serves no purpose. I'm outta here.

Actually, there isn't. I laid out the confounding variables here in this post. Many highly respected scientists at the time didn't believe that the salk vaccine had nearly the effect that its proponents claimed it did.

As a parent of a beautiful autistic child who makes me smile every day I hope one day we can prove vaccines caused this...That way I can send a thank you note to them for making my child just the way she is.....As it stands I think I just got lucky and blessed....

I hear you, and I completely understand. Some parents aren't so blessed. Some have to wrestle their adult autistic children to the ground to avoid getting beat up. Some have to put them in homes. They're still a blessing to be sure, but I wouldn't want it to keep happening if it could be avoided. That said, and I think this bears repeating, I do not think that vaccines are a major factor in autism.

As to trust, you can't have it both ways. You can't say, "just because he has a medical degree doesn't mean he knows anything!"*, and then say, "She has a PhD so so her papers are valid!" Face it - you've chosen who you want to trust.

No, I absolutely have not. I do not trust this women. I pointed out two potential reasons she could be biased. I was simply calling out a few folks for taking a dump on the OP when all he did was share an article of an interview of a very smart lady with impressive credentials. This wasn't a quack. He didn't deserve to get dumped on like he did for sharing it.

Actually, to your credit, you're rather civil.

Thank you, I'm doing my best to be civil.

Actually, it does. When someone gets a diploma there's evidence that yes, they do know a lot about the subject. And please, for the love of Pete, don't try and take us down the road of the failures of organized learning.

Have I ever told you about the failures of organized learning? Let me elaborate.

This is bad:
"Well, doc, I read all those papers, but there's this one over here that says vaccines are bad..."
"Oh?"
"Yeah, and since you're wearing a tie and you say the same things the government and big pharma say, then I can't trust you..."
"Ugh..."
"The fact that almost everyone say vaccines are safe must mean they aren't safe because people are sheep..."
"I need to go see my next patient now.

I agree with you. This is poor logic. If you attribute this logic to me, then I think you should re-read the things that I post.

 

[Alpo]

Many scientists, highly respected, did not believe plate tectonic theory. There is always opposition. That was then, this is now. The protocol is largely unchanged from the 1950's as I understand it. How do your respected scientists feel about it now?

I still believe that these opinions (of scientists at the time) are anecdotal. They did not have scientific data to falsify the work that Salk and Sabin had performed.

I think the worst possible position to be in is a parent, relying upon the claims of science and scientists for a remedy, only to hear positions without scientific support being presented by doctors and scientists who should know better. In some cases, it is a plea for funding on their part. In others, just irresponsible.

++Edited for thumb/phone typing problems.++

 

[Fargo]

Many scientist, highly respected, did not believe plate tectonic theory. There is always opposition. That was then, this is now. The protocol is largely unchanged from the 1950's as I understand it. How do your respected scientists feel about it now?

I still that these opinions (of scientists at the time) are anecdotal. They did not have scientific data to falsify the work that Salk and Sabin had performed.

I think the worst possible position to be in is a parent, relying upon the claims of science and scientists for a remedy, only to hear positions without scientific support being presented by doctors and scientists who should know better. In some cases, it is a plea for funding on their part. In others, just irresponsible.

Of curiousity, how do you pick which doctors/scientists to believe and which to discredit?

 

[steveh_131]

Many scientist, highly respected, did not believe plate tectonic theory. There is always opposition. That was then, this is now. The protocol is largely unchanged from the 1950's as I understand it. How do your respected scientists feel about it now?

I still that these opinions (of scientists at the time) are anecdotal. They did not have scientific data to falsify the work that Salk and Sabin had performed.

I feel like you didn't actually read my post that I linked. If you want to talk about it, read it first and let's discuss specifics.

 

[BugI02]

I provided zero anecdotes. I already provided the source. Here it is again:

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/1961/03/05/page/62/article/the-truth-about-the-polio-vaccines

March 1961 !!! Seriously? Is there perhaps an article within critiqueing those new fangled transistors and praising vacuum tubes?.. Science has made a wee bit of progress since back in THAT day. Would you rely on advice from that era on anything modern. It seems akin to saying 4 out of 5 witch doctors are skeptical of the vaccination program. And yes I know its kind of schizo to demand sources and then immediately find fault with whats offered up, but thats from back in the "atomic power, electricity to cheap to meter" days.

 

[steveh_131]

Try to keep up with the thread.

We're discussing the history of the polio vaccine. Not modern medicine. Of course I'm looking at historical sources for a discussion of history.

 

[BugI02]

We're not talking about current vaccines. We're trying to figure out if the old vaccine eradicated polio, or if it may have disappeared for other reasons. If you can't prove that, then you can't make the argument that it's going to come back if we don't all vaccinate.

Steveh, polio is already coming back in some of the worst strife torn areas overseas.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/06/health/world-health-organization-polio-health-emergency.html?_r=0

 

[steveh_131]

I should have been more clear. I'm specifically referring to the U.S. I thought that would have been clear since the graph in question is of the u.s. population.

 

[Alpo]

A study was made to determine to what extent polioviruses were causing paralytic and nonparalytic poliomyelitis in the Houston area. The two series of patients studied consisted of 126 and 125 patients hospitalized with the clinical diagnoses of paralytic poliomyelitis and aseptic meningitis, respectively. Only 3 of 100 laboratory-confirmed paralytic poliomyelitis patients had received 3 or more Salk vaccine inoculations, whereas 87 were unvaccinated and 10 had received either 1 or 2 vaccine inoculations. From these and other data the authors conclude that poliomyelitis continues to appear in clinical form because vaccine is not administered to susceptible persons.

Journal of the American Medical Association

JAMA Network | JAMA | Effectiveness of Salk Vaccine:*Analysis of Virologically Confirmed Cases of Paralytic and Nonparalytic Poliomyelitis

From Forbes, April 2015
http://www.forbes.com/sites/tarahae...ive-60-years-ago-what-would-salk-think-today/