Vaccines and Autism

[steveh_131]

Let's not forget that Dr. Thompson, Senior Scientist at the CDC, thinks the data was significant.

I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism.

I've opted not to argue this point because I don't think you guys have the equipment to properly debate it, but Dr. Thompson and all of his co-authors certainly thought it was significant when they were preparing to publish it into the garbage can.

 

[steveh_131]

You've gone for pages claiming you KNOW there is fraud and a coverup. You have PROVED neither.

What on earth are you talking about? I have an entire thread full of proof of this fraud and coverup. He confessed it publicly in audio recordings, in a public written confession, and now in testimony to Congress.

The fraud and cover-up are no longer up for debate. They are now history.

 

[Alpo]

He made a claim. He has not backed that claim up. He has published nothing that I have seen on his claim.

Am I capable of evaluating statistical data? Probably. I had a minor in college on the subject, but that was many years ago. Still, we still use the same math.

 

[Alpo]

What on earth are you talking about? I have an entire thread full of proof of this fraud and coverup. He confessed it publicly in audio recordings, in a public written confession, and now in testimony to Congress.

The fraud and cover-up are no longer up for debate. They are now history.

So you say. They are alleged. They are not proved.

You have one "senior scientist". I remind you that Dr. Mengele was a "senior scientist". Disgruntled. Making claims. Not presenting results.

Get back to us when you have a report.

 

[steveh_131]

So you say. They are alleged. They are not proved.

Congress has the documents now. We'll see what they choose to do with them. I'm hoping they'll release them to the public, but who knows. They might release them right into the trash can again, and you'll be able to bury your head in the sand once more chanting 'Vaccines are safe and effective. Vaccines are safe and effective. The CDC loves me. The CDC would never lie to me. Vaccines are safe and effective."

 

[Alpo]

Congress has data and testimony. It does not have an analysis of the data.

A number $3 billion was put on the record. Do you have any idea how that was put together? GAO? CBO?

What is it? Is it disability payments under Social Security to families with children affected by vaccines? Or autism? Or both? Right now, it's just a number and I have no idea what it means.

Where is the group beating the drum for black vaccinated babies with autism? Where is the complete study?

It doesn't exist because no one has shown that it is real. Thompson hasn't. He's only offered his own confession of having data he doesn't know what to do with (and possibly isn't competent to analyze).

 

[steveh_131]

Geeze, man. The study is in the thread. Why are you arguing about a subject when you haven't even looked into it or bothered to read the basics?

 

[Alpo]

When is a study not a study? When it is retracted.

The Editor and Publisher regretfully retract the article [1] as there were undeclared competing interests on the part of the author which compromised the peer review process. Furthermore, post-publication peer review raised concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis, therefore the Editors no longer have confidence in the soundness of the findings. We apologise to all affected parties for the inconvenience caused.

 

[BugI02]

When is a study not a study? When it is retracted.

Alpo, I think I'm going to have to agree with Steveh at least partly on this one. Whether the discarded data was significant or not is obfuscation. Scientists in general, and especially scientists working for an agency dedicated to furthering public health and well being, should not be discarding inconvenient data and ammending research after the exclusion. They could easily have included the data and refuted it if they thought it somehow was suspect and engendering an inaccurate result. Employees of these agencies should take especial caution to avoid ANY appearance of impropriety or bias.

 

[steveh_131]

I'm going to respond to that in the other thread, it's more relevant there.

 

[BugI02]

The saddest part of this thread is that there are so many people who are so easily manipulated and can be made to believe anything. Some seem desperate to believe anything they are told, regardless of the obvious foolishness.

ATM, is that you?

 

[Alpo]

Alpo, I think I'm going to have to agree with Steveh at least partly on this one. Whether the discarded data was significant or not is obfuscation. Scientists in general, and especially scientists working for an agency dedicated to furthering public health and well being, should not be discarding inconvenient data and ammending research after the exclusion. They could easily have included the data and refuted it if they thought it somehow was suspect and engendering an inaccurate result. Employees of these agencies should take especial caution to avoid ANY appearance of impropriety or bias.

Yeah. I understand your point. Perhaps I'm a bit jaded by prior human behavior. We have presidents covering up breakins to opposition headquarters. We have presidents lying about sex, WMD's and what not.

What would be important to me is if any of the researchers on this subject published definitive results that link any vaccine to any disease or malady.

We have something between 10 trillion and 100 trillion microbes on or in our bodies at any one time.....and a lot of them reside in the gut. It may be an impossible task (if autism is microbe related) to ever truly determine what is causal and what combination of factors are necessary for the syndrome to be active.

Then again, it may be DNA or RNA based. We haven't truly penetrated genetics or epigenetics to any significant degree. And much of the junk DNA has been set aside for the time being to study active genes. Who knows what will ultimately be found in my great grandchildren's children's generation. I certainly don't think there will be current discoveries.

People make mistakes and it takes a special kind of person to stand up and admit it. I don't know if it's always been that way, but it seems to go back to St. Augustine's time at least.

Again, I sympathize with the parents of autistic children. They have an enormous responsibility. I only wish that those who foster false hopes would stop their ranting and move toward actions that would help cure the syndrome.

 

[BugI02]

1DOWN4UP I also do not wish to make light of you situation, but as a scientist I just have a problem with this line of reasoning. I assume oyu know that ASDs are four times more likely to strike males than females. If its an immune response to toxins in vaccines why has no one postulated a mechanism for this disproportionate sexual distribution given that the likelihood of autoimmune diseases leans heavily in the other direction. As I said in an earlier post, if science cannot say for sure what is altered in the genome/physiology of an autistic child relative to a non ASD child how can they postulate a causative mechanism.

If I may, I would like to re-introduce these points to the discussion. (If one quotes oneself too often is there a risk of going blind?)

 

[JettaKnight]

ATM, is that you?

IKR?

Check out some of his other posts - totally ATM.

 

[BugI02]

Yeah. I understand your point. Perhaps I'm a bit jaded by prior human behavior. We have presidents covering up breakins to opposition headquarters. We have presidents lying about sex, WMD's and what not.

What would be important to me is if any of the researchers on this subject published definitive results that link any vaccine to any disease or malady.

We have something between 10 trillion and 100 trillion microbes on or in our bodies at any one time.....and a lot of them reside in the gut. It may be an impossible task (if autism is microbe related) to ever truly determine what is causal and what combination of factors are necessary for the syndrome to be active.

Then again, it may be DNA or RNA based. We haven't truly penetrated genetics or epigenetics to any significant degree. And much of the junk DNA has been set aside for the time being to study active genes. Who knows what will ultimately be found in my great grandchildren's children's generation. I certainly don't think there will be current discoveries.

People make mistakes and it takes a special kind of person to stand up and admit it. I don't know if it's always been that way, but it seems to go back to St. Augustine's time at least.

Again, I sympathize with the parents of autistic children. They have an enormous responsibility. I only wish that those who foster false hopes would stop their ranting and move toward actions that would help cure the syndrome.

I would like to see more effort to characterize whats different in ASD people relative to non-ASD folks. Is there a difference in neurochemistry, size and rate of maturity of component brain areas etc. If and when science can point to, say, a specific genetic mutation that alters a neurotransmitter or a receptor site etc in a way that demonstrably causes ASD symptoms I would give more credence to attempts to find correlations with potential causal factors. But until we know what is changed/mutated it seems to me the hunt for the agent(s) of these changes is crippled.

 

[steveh_131]

1DOWN4UP I also do not wish to make light of you situation, but as a scientist I just have a problem with this line of reasoning. I assume oyu know that ASDs are four times more likely to strike males than females. If its an immune response to toxins in vaccines why has no one postulated a mechanism for this disproportionate sexual distribution given that the likelihood of autoimmune diseases leans heavily in the other direction.

Interesting point. I think that one piece of the puzzle that you are missing is some large differences in the way ASD's present in males vs. females. I think that the diagnosis rate may be artificially low in females due to this. Just a thought.

As I said in an earlier post, if science cannot say for sure what is altered in the genome/physiology of an autistic child relative to a non ASD child how can they postulate a causative mechanism.

I agree, we're shooting in the dark here going at it from both directions. We're a long ways away from any answers, in my opinion.

If an environmental toxin is to blame (even in combination with genetic factors), I am more inclined to lean towards pesticides as a possible trigger for many of these childhood developmental disorders. I've seen much more compelling evidence there than I have with vaccines.

 

[Alpo]

I was thinking about the brain for the last few minutes and a TED lecture I'd seen by a renowned scientist. Can't for the life of me remember who it was....but San Diego comes to mind...anyway, it's an exciting area of study.

edit: I looked it up. Antonio Damasio

 

[BugI02]

Interesting point. I think that one piece of the puzzle that you are missing is some large differences in the way ASD's present in males vs. females. I think that the diagnosis rate may be artificially low in females due to this. Just a thought.



I agree, we're shooting in the dark here going at it from both directions. We're a long ways away from any answers, in my opinion.

If an environmental toxin is to blame (even in combination with genetic factors), I am more inclined to lean towards pesticides as a possible trigger for many of these childhood developmental disorders. I've seen much more compelling evidence there than I have with vaccines.

You are correct. I was not aware that there is a sex-based difference in presentation/symptoms. Fascinating. All of the ASD sufferers I know personally are sons. Could you suggest further reading in this area?

 

[halfmileharry]

Interesting point. I think that one piece of the puzzle that you are missing is some large differences in the way ASD's present in males vs. females. I think that the diagnosis rate may be artificially low in females due to this. Just a thought.



I agree, we're shooting in the dark here going at it from both directions. We're a long ways away from any answers, in my opinion.

If an environmental toxin is to blame (even in combination with genetic factors), I am more inclined to lean towards pesticides as a possible trigger for many of these childhood developmental disorders. I've seen much more compelling evidence there than I have with vaccines.

My physician has an autistic son as well as me. We discuss this subject on every visit. He researches it diligently. He steadfastly holds that Autism is caused directly by the toxins we've been contaminating our planet with for many decades now.
Is he an expert? I don't know if he is or not BUT I do know he's a loving and very concerned parent that's also a doctor and he is always learning about it. I'll go with my Doc 'cause he's got a reason to learn all this. He has a real dog in the hunt on this one.
I don't believe squat from ANY Govt agency and not many here do as well. It's another pick and choose what you like and ask the questions you need to come up with preconceived answers.
People are going to believe what they wish.
I don't trust the CDC, Snopes has their own axe to grind and depends on monies from those they "check". Lots of the Doctors need the correct results to get the high $$$ Corporate jobs. Post the wrong conclusion and the big buck job flies out the window on them.
When the medical field figures all this out I'll re-read every post and see who was right. Hindsight is always good to bet on.

 

[steveh_131]

You are correct. I was not aware that there is a sex-based difference in presentation/symptoms. Fascinating. All of the ASD sufferers I know personally are sons. Could you suggest further reading in this area?

This is an interesting read. It's pretty fascinating how they differ. Both can commonly struggle with sensory disorders, but the more 'typical' symptoms that people outwardly recognize aren't present as often in females. Hand-flapping, repetetive motions, screeching, etc. It often manifests more in social disorders.

My physician has an autistic son as well as me. We discuss this subject on every visit. He researches it diligently. He steadfastly holds that Autism is caused directly by the toxins we've been contaminating our planet with for many decades now.

Give this a read: https://www.indianagunowners.com/fo...h-shows-link-between-pesticides-autism-2.html