Vaccinations. Yes or no ?

[Pyroponce]

What do you know about my kids and what vaccines they've gotten and haven't gotten or the results of those vaccinations? You want your daughter to have them. I no longer want my children to have them. You have your reasons. I have mine.

Is there anything else that you believe should be forced upon my family, so that your family may be better off as a result?

I had hoped your comment about taking my children away, vaccinating and then returning them to me was an implied purple. Thanks for showing me the true color. And please don't use polio as the example why my kids should get a vaccine for chicken pox as others have upthread. That's such apples to oranges argument.


All for the greater good, I suppose.

I don't know any of your specific reasons for choosing to no longer vaccinated your children. I sincerely hope those reasons don't include research by Andrew Wakefield.

This whole country is built on laws, all of which modify man's natural freedom to do whatever he pleases. A more stark example would be traffic laws and driver licenses. In a natural world with unlimited rights, you could travel in any manner you pleased, going as fast as you wanted to without stopping. But your natural rights don't amount to much if you crash into someone driving just like you. Rather, we exchange the unlimited freedom to drive in as we please for the limited freedom of driving by the rules of the road and being penalized when we break them.

It work the same with vaccines. Someone doesn't play by the rules and get vaccinated, and an innocent person may pay for it. I think the science speaks for itself, unless, again, you adhere to Andrew Wakefield.

Sometimes I wish that everyone in the country who didn't want themselves or their children vaccinated were moved free of charge to one state so they could see personally the consequences of not being vaccinated.

 

[Pyroponce]

Wow... Locke advocating for government mandated inoculations over the free will of parents and / or their children.

I'll have to pull my copy of the two treatisies and see on what page number that is discussed.

Which page number is it in your copy?

Hey now, you have to know how to interpret these things. It's not like we're talking about the Constitution

 

[J_Wales]

A good number of progressives argue that those with compromised health should be terminated in the womb; for the greater good of course.

State intrusion on the rights of parents and children is a perilous matter.

 

[Double T]

Yes. A vaccine is like your parents taking you to a chicken pox playdate as a kid so you get it over with. Except these kids may or may not get shingles as they age and the virus comes out of laying dormant.

Flu vaccines should not be involuntary unless you are in a high risk of mortality group.

Say what you will, if you don't like vaccines, how do you feel about antivenin? Its a very similar thing? Except one is a preventative measure.

People can say that it is a way for the government to control us, BS. Its a way for the government to keep its people healthy so they can work and keep others from missing work.

Yes, there are risks. But there are more risks to hopping in my car and driving to the gas station. If you live your life in fear of "the potential risks" then what kind of life is that?

Get your immunizations. Have a sore arm, and probably feel icky for 2 days. It'll be a lot better than projectile vomiting and crapping your pants on the way up to your house with the flu after you get off worl...and then being off work for a few days. And then your buddies and whomever you interacted with during the infectious non symptomatic phase get to have the same thing. They get sicks from the stress of a larger workload. Then you go back still feeling crappy but "over it". Productivity drops, revenue drops. And people point out.

Its a huge pain. It happened every year when I worked in factory, retail, food, or healthcare.

If you can get your body to kick a virus' ass before it makes you or others sick, do it. Being sick sucks.

 

[hooky]

You're honestly using traffic laws to rationalize the forced vaccination of my children? I don't even know why I'm continuing with this back and forth, but I can choose not to drive if I don't like the laws requiring licensing and/or traffic laws. Millions make that choice by the way.

Unlike your wish of ill will towards me and my family, I personally hope that you never see the consequences of a vaccination gone wrong.

Good night!

 

[rambone]

Don't vax me bro.

In brief, man existing in a state of nature band together and form a government unto which emails every man gives up some natural rights in order to enjoy greater overall freedom. In a state of nature, man has the unlimited right to do whatever he pleases (including not seek preventative medical treatment), but life isn't worth living in a state of nature when it's cut off by measles. So in this government formed by consent, people give up that unlimited right, and in the case of measles, science that isn't the work of hacks is followed and so everyone is required to get vaccinated, as outlined in one of my previous posts.

Now if that's fascism, then you must be a proponent of anarchy as a system of government.

Give up your rights for the greater good?

Life isn't worth living if you have the risk of getting sick?

Sorry komrade, that's fascism at its finest. The 4th amendment enumerates right to be secure in my person, and I'll not give up that right so you can feel safer.

 

[Pyroponce]

A good number of progressives argue that those with compromised health should be terminated in the womb; for the greater good of course.

State intrusion on the rights of parents and children is a perilous matter.

You're absolutely right, and the important thing to consider when a government decides where it ought to intervene in cases like this is that all life is valuable and it deserves a fighting chance to thrive.

You're honestly using traffic laws to rationalize the forced vaccination of my children? I don't even know why I'm continuing with this back and forth, but I can choose not to drive if I don't like the laws requiring licensing and/or traffic laws. Millions make that choice by the way.

Unlike your wish of ill will towards me and my family, I personally hope that you never see the consequences of a vaccination gone wrong.

Good night!

It may not have been the best comparison, but I believe the principle of exchanging unlimited freedom for limiting, more fulfilling freedom, is the same.

For what it's worth, I don't actually wish your family harm. I just fear you're putting them in harm's way, and endangering those in your community as well. My rhetoric got away from me, and I apologize.

Give up your rights for the greater good?

Life isn't worth living if you have the risk of getting sick?

Sorry komrade, that's fascism at its finest. The 4th amendment enumerates right to be secure in my person, and I'll not give up that right so you can feel safer.

You would really trade all the conveniences and liberties of this country as it is, fostered under the law as it stands, in exchange for a state of natural freedom where you would probably not live past forty?

 

[J_Wales]

You're absolutely right, and the important thing to consider when a government decides where it ought to intervene in cases like this is that all life is valuable and it deserves a fighting chance to thrive.

Given the state's well established position on "all life is valuable and it deserves a fighting chance to thrive", I will not let it dictate what is best for my family or me.

I wish you well.

 

[cyprant]

Peoples children and their well being are the main focus of this debate and thats the last thing i want to "argue" about ... Im regretting stating my opinion... respectfully bowing out...

(I too have personal experiences with vaccinations or lack there of)

 

[Double T]

Yes. But their are limitations to everyones individual rights.

We have a right to life and liberty so long as we don't go on a murderous rampage. I have a right to live free of the risk of infection. It can happen.

I get an MMR, you don't. We work together. You get sick. My body doesn't recognize the "newer" virus as its chemical markers are drastically changed from when I had it as a kid. I go sick and infectious without knowing it, take it home to my immunocompromised wife. She dies.

You are then responsible for my wifes death whether you see it that way or not. You made a choice not to become vaccinated, and as a result my wife died.

This is not a what if scenario, my wife really is immunocompromised. Her body doesn't fight infections well at all because of her disease.

I can't isolate myself as I need to provide for my family.


Ram, from reading between the lines, your views of "rights" seem to teeter on the borders of anarchy. Absolute individul rights without recourse or thought for abusing or mistreating the rights of others.

While I agree to a point that your kids should not be forced to have vaccinations, I do believe that they are a necessary evil to prevent an outbreak. To simply deny any responsibilty of your choice causing any potential harm borders on negligence and being uncaring.

It really is quite frustrating trying to talk to you, it seems like you are kind of set and closed minded in your ways.

We all have the right to keep and bear arms. Yet a private property owner can tell us to GTFO because we carry. On a similar note, the schools have a right to deny any child who is unvaccinated entry due to the potential effects on the other children. You may cry foul, but its the truth. Just because you exercise the right to not vaccinate, does not mean that the school can allow a potential medical threat to go unprevented. Since you chose not to vaccinate, they are keeping the kids away from the virujsfor our children by not allowing a potential host to be near our kids.

If that is not enough, there is always being homeschooled

If my child was to become ill with a virus they were vaccinated against and your kid got them sick, would you pay the medical bill? If they died would you pay the funeral and burial costs?

It would be because of your choice that they were in those circumstances, so I would hope you could accept the responsibility?

I am not saying these circumstances can or will happen, I'm just posing some very serious questions that I hope you can honestly answer and not just cast aside.

 

[sbcman]

That is crazy.

The last time I had to have a shot was around two months ago, I had some rusty metal pieces shot into my hand from a faulty high pressure valve. I headed in to get a tetanus shot, little did I know that I was in for a weird experience. Combined with the tetanus shot, was three other vaccines for what they called
"preventative care". I had to sign a paper that I knew and understood the risks and dangers of having them injected in my body. I refused at first, and was told all tetanus shots were combined with other vaccines now. So I signed the paper and got the shot. It leveled me for four days. I was beyond dizzy and nauseous, I was vomiting non stop for the first two days, and the next two I couldn't think, hardly talk, or move.

They lied to you, flat out. Just this past Monday I went for a tetanus shot. Had to go to three clinics before I got a "plain" tetanus. I think the three you was given were tetanus, whooping cough and diptheria. I could be wrong, but if that is the case it's no wonder you felt terrible!

Now, here's a side note to my little vaccine that we really do need to keep in mind as a danger. The first clinic I went to only had the DTap, and I passed. They called another clinic, who said they had the tet.tox. vaccine (which come to find out, they didn't). But, as the doc was readying the vaccine for me, he stops all the sudden and says

"Do you see that in there?"

I did see something- looked like a small cotton ball. He didn't know what was going on, so he called a doctor friend and then a pharmacist. All this time his nurse is saying "all of them look like that, it's fine, just give it." The pharmicist gets on the line and gives a big "do not inject him with that and pull the rest of the vaccines."

The doc chatted with me a bit about this and said that it could be a fungus or could be precipitate or whatever. He informed me that if it was a fungus that I would have been messed up bad. He then said that he was real leary of it because it had "protasis" (what it sounded like anyway) and that if the batch was bad, I again, would have been messed up.

So, I was pushed to a third clinic and got the plain tet. shot.

All that said, be careful folks. I'm not anti-vaccine, just make sure that whoever is injecting stuff in your body is competent enough to catch things that can go south on you quick

 

[Misplaced Yankee]

The Case Against Immunizatons - Doctors Speak - General Issues - About Vaccines - Vaccination Risk Awareness Network

First Link: 26 years old. Cutting edge there. A doctor 26 years ago doubted vaccines. One doctor. Hmm, you'd think in the last two and a half decades they'd be a major change if he were right?

Doctors against vaccines

More 20+ year old speculation. Including a doctor who fled his country after they wouldn't listen to him.

Medical Doctors Against Vaccines | International Medical Council on Vaccination

The book from your accountant-doctor. Do you read your references or just post what google tells you?

Blatant Propaganda : Doctors Warn Against Vaccination - Immunization

Wow, this seems the actions of a sane, truthful, knowledgeable person in medicine. Courtroom Fraud
Same writer. CHECK YOUR SOURCES, YOUR'S ARE WORTHLESS

So we have 25 year old information, and a nutjob who photographs people who give him the finger, then pays to keep it online. All full of false information. Come on man. As for the "Give up the rights for the greater good" option: It's the same as why I can't start blaring my music at 3am. Other people want to sleep. So i deal with a temporary inconvenience (head phones). Now this increases my chance of going deaf, but it's for the greater good.

Let's play devil's advocate for a minute here. So you refuse to gett your child vaccinated rambone. Now your child catches measles, and spreads it to the girl with a weak immune system. She dies. How's that fair? Your neglect is causing the death of another. If you want to be part of society, there's certain rules to follow. One is not killing off others through neglect.

And I'm not talking flu vaccines here, those I agree are dumb. I'm talking the big boys, you know, what's required before you can go to school.

Seriously, read http://courtroomfraud.com/ It's one of the funniest insane rants I've heard in a while.

 

[Caldad]

Stop complaining!

Take your regular baconation like a man!!

 

[Pyroponce]

Rambone doesn't care if his [neglect/exercise of his natural rights] causes the death of someone else. After all, he's secure in his person.

 

[Double T]

Let's not let this thread go there. Keep it civil.

 

[J_Wales]

They lied to you, flat out. Just this past Monday I went for a tetanus shot. Had to go to three clinics before I got a "plain" tetanus. I think the three you was given were tetanus, whooping cough and diptheria. I could be wrong, but if that is the case it's no wonder you felt terrible!

Now, here's a side note to my little vaccine that we really do need to keep in mind as a danger. The first clinic I went to only had the DTap, and I passed. They called another clinic, who said they had the tet.tox. vaccine (which come to find out, they didn't). But, as the doc was readying the vaccine for me, he stops all the sudden and says

"Do you see that in there?"

I did see something- looked like a small cotton ball. He didn't know what was going on, so he called a doctor friend and then a pharmacist. All this time his nurse is saying "all of them look like that, it's fine, just give it." The pharmicist gets on the line and gives a big "do not inject him with that and pull the rest of the vaccines."

The doc chatted with me a bit about this and said that it could be a fungus or could be precipitate or whatever. He informed me that if it was a fungus that I would have been messed up bad. He then said that he was real leary of it because it had "protasis" (what it sounded like anyway) and that if the batch was bad, I again, would have been messed up.

So, I was pushed to a third clinic and got the plain tet. shot.

All that said, be careful folks. I'm not anti-vaccine, just make sure that whoever is injecting stuff in your body is competent enough to catch things that can go south on you quick

Oh come now.
How baa baa baa baaaaad could it be?

 

[ArmedProgrammer]

I trust doctors as much as used car salesmen.

Someone's GOTTA ask this, and it's only half "tongue in cheek"....

What about a doctor named Ron Paul? Would he get the vaccination?

WWRPD?

 

[GBuck]

Yes, going to med school does enable them to tell you what is best for your kids' health.

It amazes me how many people act like they know more about medicine than doctors. I would assume that these are the same people that go to the barber and correct their cutting technique or go to the mechanic and explain to them how they are doing it wrong.

As in other things, rx companies and doctors want to make money. It is terrible business to put out products that continually harm or kill your clients. A free market dictates they will put out a safe product or go out of business. Many more people get sick yearly due to lack of vaccinations than sure to receiving vaccinations.

The only reason measles etc is making a comeback is sore to know it all parents not vaccinating their kids.

 

[GBuck]

Also note that former leading killers diphtheria, polio, and measles are all but extinct due to vaccinations.

 

[J_Wales]

Someone's GOTTA ask this, and it's only half "tongue in cheek"....

What about a doctor named Ron Paul? Would he get the vaccination?

WWRPD?

Good question. I suggest you ask Ron Paul.

I suspect he may exercise his free will to get a vaccination. I also suspect he would pay for it with his own funds. For those that wanted to get a vaccination but had not the funds, I suspect Paul would donate his own property by choice to fund the effort. I suspect many that are of like mind would willingly donate their own property by choice as well.

I suspect none of these folks would advocate state enforced vaccination and forced confiscation of property to provide funding.