Uvalde Texas Killing

[Doug]

We could have a better mental health situation if we didn't have to worry about the AMA declaring all non-socialists to be psychopaths.

 

[jamil]

Getting to the shrink stage is near impossible if the person doesn’t want to go.

As someone who tried to get a family member committed and the deputies said “he hasn’t said he wants to hurt himself or others to us so we can’t do anything”. Even though I told them he threaten to hurt people. Basically they told me I would need to get him on video or Audio saying it.

And people wonder how s*** like this happens.

Think of it from the other side of things though. Would you want some neighbor who has it in for you, just be able to call the cops and claim you threatened people without proof? That you could be arrested just on the word of someone who might be lying?

Not locking people up based merely on the word of individuals, without any other evidence, is a feature of a free society, not a bug. But, the tradeoff of that feature is that sometimes the word of those individuals are accurate. And then nothing can be done to stop someone like that. It's the price of freedom.

 

[chipbennett]

That person does hold some responsibility. Not full responsibility. The greatest portion of responsibility is on the shooter. And it's not even close.

The teacher circumvented the security. Sounds like they all did it. So then it was only a matter of timing that this one teacher's actions made it easier for the shooter, and not some other teacher who routinely did the same thing. I agree with you generally, but I'd stop at criminal responsibility. Civil? Yes. I think it's fair to sue the school and even individuals who even unwittingly gave aid to the shooter.

I think it would be quite unfair to hold the teacher criminally responsible when it the school neglected to enforce security policies. If the one teacher was guilty, then all the teachers who routinely propped the door open are guilty, as the only difference is the fate of timing.

I'm fine with holding the school administration responsible (civilly) as well. But the teacher that propped open the door committed a criminally negligent (at best) act. That teacher's action led directly to an evil person bent on harming students having access to those students - access that he otherwise would not have had.

This is (sort of - an admittedly strained analogy) like the old trope about shouting "Fire!" in a crowded theater. 99% of the time, that utterance causes no harm. But in that 1%, the utterance causes a panic that results in harm. In that 1%, the person who caused the panic by their utterance can be and is held responsible. Same here. It doesn't matter that, 99% of the time, propping that door open has no adverse outcome. It did this time, and the person who propped open the door this time bears part of the responsibility.

Want to change the culture? Hold that person directly, criminally responsible for the intentional act of circumventing the security measure. Convict that person, and make that person spend time behind bars.

Children are dead, in part, because someone valued convenience above safety.

 

[KLB]

Think of it from the other side of things though. Would you want some neighbor who has it in for you, just be able to call the cops and claim you threatened people without proof? That you could be arrested just on the word of someone who might be lying?

Not locking people up based merely on the word of individuals, without any other evidence, is a feature of a free society, not a bug. But, the tradeoff of that feature is that sometimes the word of those individuals are accurate. And then nothing can be done to stop someone like that. It's the price of freedom.

Or a mad/crazy spouse or ex...

 

[jamil]

Latest timeline

View attachment 203377

If the timeline is correct then the shooter wasn't outside the school for 12 minutes. But damn. 19 cops in the hallway at 12:03, all while kids were pleading with 911 to send cops. This is infuriating.

 

[jamil]

The teacher went to the door and kicked the stone out of the way that propped the door open and let the door close. If the stone was small and just gaped the door a little when the door closed there wasn't enough force to engage the lock.
Try it yourself on a self-locking door. Put your finger between the door and frame. Pull your finger out. The door will close, did it lock?
I went to the schools that my younger granddaughters go to yesterday. The county maintenance guy and I checked every door in the 3 buildings. I had a bucket of wood blocks different widths from half inch to 8 inches. A few doors locked with the 2" block. Some didn't lock using the 8" block. All doors were adjusted to lock with the half inch block. Had to replace the closer on 5 doors.

Every school should be doing this at the minimum.

 

[Cameramonkey]

The teacher went to the door and kicked the stone out of the way that propped the door open and let the door close. If the stone was small and just gaped the door a little when the door closed there wasn't enough force to engage the lock.
Try it yourself on a self-locking door. Put your finger between the door and frame. Pull your finger out. The door will close, did it lock?
I went to the schools that my younger granddaughters go to yesterday. The county maintenance guy and I checked every door in the 3 buildings. I had a bucket of wood blocks different widths from half inch to 8 inches. A few doors locked with the 2" block. Some didn't lock using the 8" block. All doors were adjusted to lock with the half inch block. Had to replace the closer on 5 doors.

Properly calibrated closers with fully functioning bolts/strikes should latch the door no matter what. There should be enough closing force to push the bolt past the strike plate every time. There shouldnt be any way to prop the door without an object to block it.

 

[Keith_Indy]

I wouldn’t make up your mind about what actually happened until the investigation is complete…

Police Reveal Key Information On How Texas School Shooting Happened

The gunman who shot and killed 19 children and two teachers in a Uvalde, Texas school entered through a an unlocked door, Texas state police now say.

dailycaller.com

Police initially reported that the shooter, Salvador Ramos, had entered through a door a teacher had propped open with a rock, but new video footage showed the teacher removing the rock and closing the door after realizing a shooter was on the premises, according to the Associated Press. The door was designed to lock upon closing but failed to do so, prompting an investigation by authorities.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

My intent wasn't to talk about the process,
The process has a few missing links.
Nics just isint notified. And it needs to be run through the system of course.

I'm going to need a cite about the states not notifying the FBI, I think I've heard about that happening in one shooting like this and it wasn't a state that didn't notify it was iirc the Army.

If the timeline is correct then the shooter wasn't outside the school for 12 minutes. But damn. 19 cops in the hallway at 12:03, all while kids were pleading with 911 to send cops. This is infuriating.

7 cops in the building 2 minutes after he entered the school. If the timeline is correct, which honestly I have my doubts.

 

[Keith_Indy]

You need to explain a bit more please. Do you think all that has to happen is that the shrink has to tell the state for them to become prohibited or fail a nics? If so, that is not how it works, nor should it.

The shrink can notify the police, they can go talk to the person, if they feel it's needed they can take them in for a 72 hr hold/evaluation. Depending on that they can then file with the courts to have them adjudicated mentally defective which requires a court hearing with the burden of proof on the state. At least that is how my non lawyer self believes it works.

How many people are in therapy who’ve not shown any proclivity towards violence, don’t say anything about those dark thoughts haunting them, have the means to commit violence but aren’t quite at the point of going “falling down” stage?

 

[Keith_Indy]

I'm going to need a cite about the states not notifying the FBI, I think I've heard about that happening in one shooting like this and it wasn't a state that didn't notify it was iirc the Army.

7 cops in the building 2 minutes after he entered the school. If the timeline is correct, which honestly I have my doubts.

States not fully reporting is an issue.

Facts & Info | FixNICS | FixNICS.org

Facts & Info FixNICS

fixnics.org

 

[BE Mike]

I agree. But we have no mental hospitals now, or at least not enough.

You are on point. The problem is that there are not enough jails and people to staff them either. Politicians don't want to tackle the huge relevant problems like these. They would rather have these people, who need help or incarceration, walk among us. It's a lot easier for them to pass a bill to outlaw something, that has been documented to have little effect on the problem and costs little, but appeases many.

I see no hope. We have had to cut ties with him when he weaponized his daughters against us. There is nothing out of bounds for them. All of his problems remain my fault because I will no longer subsidize his life choices.
I feel your pain as well.

If misery truly loves company, I am on the same train with you. It is hard, but cutting ties is the only solution to protect yourself and your family. Unlike what some other posters seem to think, it is unlikely that his behavior has anything to do with your parenting.

 

[chipbennett]

I wouldn’t make up your mind about what actually happened until the investigation is complete…

Police Reveal Key Information On How Texas School Shooting Happened

The gunman who shot and killed 19 children and two teachers in a Uvalde, Texas school entered through a an unlocked door, Texas state police now say.

dailycaller.com

The only key/relevant point: someone propped open a security door.

Should the teacher who removed the prop have made sure the door closed/latched properly? Probably. But in that case, the active shooter situation had already started, and it is reasonable to assume that the teacher who removed the prop was already acting in a state of stress/duress.

The real culprit remains the person who initially propped open the door.

 

[BE Mike]

True enough, but there's still considerable research into it. It's part nature--biologically predisposed, and that's the part that's not well understood--but it's mostly nurture, and there seems to be a better understanding of that. It's hard to create a narcissist who wasn't coddled, traumatized, abused, or the other 3 or 4 factors. And that's all my point was.

For those who have lived it, you don't have to point out how parents have failed the narcissist. The parents have already been on the blame train, by having the narcissist continue to "gas light" them.

 

[Timjoebillybob]

How many people are in therapy who’ve not shown any proclivity towards violence, don’t say anything about those dark thoughts haunting them, have the means to commit violence but aren’t quite at the point of going “falling down” stage?

And, what do you think should be done? Should anyone in therapy be prohibited from owning guns?

States not fully reporting is an issue.

Facts & Info | FixNICS | FixNICS.org

Facts & Info FixNICS

fixnics.org

Once again how many of these shooters were adjudicated mentally deficient by a court? Or had a felony or other disqualifier that wasn't reported? How many shootings like this happened before nics was even a thing? Should there be mandatory universal background checks so that all transfers have to go through nics? IIRC (and it's possible that I don't) there have been more of these shootings done with privately transferred firearms, than there have been done by a prohibited person whos status wasn't reported to the FBI.

 

[jamil]

**** background checks. They're a net we throw over people we think might be dangerous based on what's really somewhat arbitrary, but morally satisfying criteria to prevent crimes we're almost sure they'll commit.

Are we really that confident that a person who smokes dope will be violent with a firearm, with such certainty that we should definitely take away their 2A rights?

Are we really that confident that a person who has been adjudicated as mentally ill will be violent with a firearm, with such certainty that we should definately take away their 2A rights?

What about felons? Is every felon gonna be violent with firearms? We're that confident that we can just say across the board, you committed a felony, so no guns for you ever, you no longer have the right to defend yourself with guns.

How many people are denied 2A rights that would actually never end up being violent with a firearm?

I'd probably think a little more friendly of background checks for 2A rights if they were better targeted. Like this loser. Dude displays psychopathy, like with the bag of dead cats, okay, fine. Put him on the can't buy list. People who threaten people with violence, fine. Put them on the list. People who HAVE committed violent felonies, fine. If we have to have background checks, Instead of throwing a wide blanket over people who fit broad, arbitrary categories, let's pinpoint actual behavior that accurately predicts violence.

 

[Bugzilla]

When the Mouse does this, it means he’s getting ready to lower the BOOM!

 

[JCSR]

Just heartbreaking.......

 

[jamil]

And, what do you think should be done? Should anyone in therapy be prohibited from owning guns?


Once again how many of these shooters were adjudicated mentally deficient by a court? Or had a felony or other disqualifier that wasn't reported? How many shootings like this happened before nics was even a thing? Should there be mandatory universal background checks so that all transfers have to go through nics? IIRC (and it's possible that I don't) there have been more of these shootings done with privately transferred firearms, than there have been done by a prohibited person whos status wasn't reported to the FBI.

I'd say no. I don't think background checks were ever a solution to violent crime with firearms. I think if we're gonna play games trying to predict who's gonna be violent, let's try to be more accurate, like I said in the previous post.

No more arbitrary criteria that prohibits whole classes of people as groups. If people are going to lose rights it should be as an individual, and there needs to be a way to restore those rights. So maybe have a database of people who have been judged by a court as having lost their right to own firearms. And then you fight it in court if you think you don't deserve to be on that list.

 

[Super Bee]

Or a mad/crazy spouse or ex...

I have one of each.

Ex wife #1- Crazy as ****. Ex wife #2- Cant stand me at all.