UPS and the Union

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  • Lex Concord

    Not so well-known member
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    27   0   0
    Dec 4, 2008
    4,511
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    Morgan County
    Since I am in a union and work at UPS, I should be able to make many of you angry real quick. But I am going to try to take the high road. I will not bash you for your choice to work for a non-union shop. It still is a free country. I respect your right to make your choice. Why can't you show the same decency to those of us that choose to work in a union? That is my choice, I don't see the need to put you down, by what authority do you put me down? My union has never told me who to vote for, and does not tolerate the dead-beats that you so often talk about. UPS still makes a handy profit. The salaried people in my department, their pay is based on my salary, and then they get 10% above that, plus one months salary, plus company issued stock. I do not complain about that. You see, their pay is based on the contract we negotiate, and still make money. As for the socialist issue, I have to laugh at that one. I just traveled to Dubai, Phillipines, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, and China in the last two weeks. And I have been doing this for 20 years. I see first hand what union wages do, and don't do in relation to other forms of pay standards. Believe me, you do not want to live like that. You have a choice, they do not. But I also know that regardless of whether you make the equivalent of union pay or a portion of it, if it was not for union pay scales, you would not enjoy the pay you do. Look at unions as a neccesary evil if you like, but to take up the banner that they are all bad, is in my opinion as wrong as you can get. Sure there have been numerous news commentaries regarding the bad deeds of unions. Surely you have better sources than that. It is funny, I was reading on another post yesterday about a guys girlfriend who was hurt at work, and she was being docked wages and her Christmas bonus. The comments were made, if she were in a union, this would not be tolerated. She was hurt at work, and should be paid. Can't have it both ways. I am not saying unions are for all, but I am one that is thankful they are there. Oh and by the way, Fed-Ex just announced a 10% increase to match UPS's price structure this week. As far as the USPS, there packages are flown now by UPS and Fed-Ex. Their non-union contractors could not get the job done as cheap as we could. Go ahead and flame my now, I am a big enough boy to take it, but my post to those opposing viewpoints was not degrading. Although we are not union brothers, we are still brothers.

    As I said, I was on both sides, and the Teamsters didn't really have UPS by the shorts like the UAW had the auto makers.

    BTW, it has been a few years, and it may have changed, but when I started at UPS, it was closed shop, so my choice was to join or look elsewhere for work.

    That is the problem I stated...if it were truly a free market, union would be a true choice...no closed shops, and employers would have the option to deal with the union or not. Once there is a contract, both sides should be bound to it unless mutually agreed upon renegotiation of said contract occurs. Once the contract is up, both parties should be free (there's that word again) to forge a new contract or renegotiate.

    I don't so much have a beef with unions as with the government for unfairly promoting and protecting.

    For those who mentioned execs and other salaried employees "d'in the dog", so to speak, absolutely they do. But when they get caught doing so, they are at much higher risk to finding themselves on the street than a union member. No one can deny this.

    Look at the teachers' unions. There are teachers in NYC and other locales who have been mandated to stay away from children by the courts, yet they keep their jobs. The school districts have to rent out office space for these losers to have a place to go into work and maybe do a little paperwork, but mostly hang out, drink coffee, read the paper, and watch TV while drawing a salary and earning more pension time. Does anybody really think this is okay? :dunno: Check out the flow chart...

    Again, the unions couldn't protect people like this if not for the government.

    Finally, anyone who thinks that the Teamsters promote choice in the UPS workplace should read this and think again.
     

    SteelersFan

    Marksman
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    13   0   0
    Sep 5, 2008
    154
    18
    Muncie
    Well I am just glad all the executives and sales personnel of all the companys give 100% all the time, no web surfing on company time, or use of company credit cards for vacations, or personal phone calls on company time or?:dunno: Give me a FREAKIN BREAK guys, the rank and file are not the only one's dickin the dog!

    :bowdown:
     
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Aug 14, 2009
    3,816
    63
    Salem
    I work 12 hour days, at least 42 hours a week, including every other weekend. My company sends me to school to learn certain things. Last Thursday I spent 9-10 hours replacing a saw gearbox without any breaks.


    I'd be interested to know about the other side of the fence, how much education, how much work, and how much money office people make.

    I'm glad to see that Fletch and others brought up software development. I have a degree - from UC Davis. In Environmental Toxicology! All of the software development skills that have paid reasonably well for the past 17 years or so are ALL self - taught. It's not what I do FOR my "job" between 8 and 5 that makes me valuable. It's what I do between 7pm and 2 am to keep trying new things and pushing the envelope that keeps me employable.

    I don't denigrate the unions, that said, I don't need a union apprenticeship program to figure out what I need to do to stay valuable. In my business it is very simple - adapt or die. If I quit learning new languages, technologies, etc. I've put a three year death sentence on my career. I will go from worth large $/hr to jack-crap nothing overnight. How do I know? I've seen lots of friends that made that mistake.

    Oh - the work between 7pm and 2am??? That's not PAID work! I often do that pro bono, so that I can try out some new technology that I think is GOING TO BE important IN THE FUTURE.

    Before anyone gets cheezed off and thinks I'm tooting my own horn - please understand something. I say this mainly to make the point that it is MY responsibility to figure out what works in my industry and pay the price for success. If I don't, then I EXPECT to be without work and explaining to my wife and kids why that is. They also have to accept my explanation of why I'm working late in the home office (or on the road as I am now...) to make it happen.

    What it takes to succeed in any given line of work is different. To each their own.

    One other thing that has been a powerful force in my career... I got involved with more that just IT. For the last 12 years, I've become an expert in the deregulated power industry - while writing software for it. That has kept me busy when a lot of people were sitting on the sidelines. It's easy to outsource code-slave writing to Babjit over in Pakistan... But Babjit doesn't understand the nuances of prower trading in a deregulated market and can't discuss it with the traders in English (and Trader-talk!). I wonder who stays employed? I would submit that this is one mistake most commonly made in the IT community. We tend to focus too much on tech and not enough on the business that really drives whatever company we're working with...


    Sorry for the "Magnum Opus"... this is my answer to what works for a "Union" in my trade (and as a skilled trade, it's not that dissimilar from other trade folks, if you think about it).

    I don't know what works for anyone else and their respective trades, but I know what works in my area of expertise. I think that there's a fairly high percentage of Libertarian-ish thinkers amongst people in my line of work. I wonder why???
     

    Fletch

    Grandmaster
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    0   0   0
    Jun 19, 2008
    6,415
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    Oklahoma
    The great thing about software development is that anybody can be a software developer.

    The bad thing about software development is that anybody can be a software developer.

    All it really takes is a computer and the ability to think tasks through logically, breaking them down into small chunks that you can tackle one at a time. The tools and reference materials are all freely available on the web. Becoming a good one, on the other hand, is something else entirely.
     

    6birds

    Shooter
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    0   0   0
    Jul 15, 2008
    2,291
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    Fishers
    Well I am just glad all the executives and sales personnel of all the companys give 100% all the time, no web surfing on company time, or use of company credit cards for vacations, or personal phone calls on company time or?:dunno: Give me a FREAKIN BREAK guys, the rank and file are not the only one's dickin the dog!

    We've let a few go in 2009 for exactly this, with good reason. We do not, however, need a union to figure this out. It used to be called "common sense". I'm not sure what they call it now, but it sure-as-hell is not common.

    We have a free market for talent, be it salary or hourly. When business allows, we hire to design and build more product, driven by the sales and profit of our products. When economics demand it, we let people go to save the company for sunnier days.
     
    Rating - 100%
    15   0   0
    Aug 14, 2009
    3,816
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    Salem
    The great thing about software development is that anybody can be a software developer.

    The bad thing about software development is that anybody can be a software developer.

    All it really takes is a computer and the ability to think tasks through logically, breaking them down into small chunks that you can tackle one at a time. The tools and reference materials are all freely available on the web. Becoming a good one, on the other hand, is something else entirely.

    spot on, sir...

    and I'm always looking behind me - because the next generation of young punks is learning smarter, faster, and always one step behind.


    Interestingly more careers are like this than we would care to think about.

    For example, if I want to be a good machinist, I need to practice in much the same way. And while the tools are expensive, they are not THAT expensive. Practical experience is what makes one valuable.

    I have a great HVAC guy that works on rental properties for me (in addition to the home base..). I treat him like the expert that he is - he gained his experience similarly.

    "The Knowledge" for most things is now available on the Internet, for free.

    If you want to be a good salesperson, the same is true. Practice, invest time.

    There's a free market for all of the above skills. If you're good (AND YOU MARKET YOURSELF WELL), you will be reasonably paid. Success in most fields is within anyone's grasp - if they can practice and get good.

    Even medicine and law follow this - EXCEPT that they have GUILDS that are designed to artificially constrict supply. That's what keeps the cost of medical and legal advice high. And they still call what they do "a _practice_"! Interesting, no?

    Where else do we complain about supply of good quality folks, pray tell... Teaching? very interesting! Guilds again. Hmmmm.... I know lots of people who would make awesome teachers (and frankly would LOVE to take a year or two off from the grind of software development (or ??) and pay it back...) But the guilds would never have us. heck we can even show kids WHY the math that they are studying matters! Ask my kids, they know! I'm of the opinion that experts ought to take a sabbatical to TEACH as opposed to teachers taking a sabbatical to see the real world. But that's a little too heretical of a discussion for some folks taste... (grin)

    Guilds/Unions/etc can be a force for good when dealing with an autocratic, bottom line corporate management. I grant that. When they protect the person who doesn't deserve protection, they become a force for evil. Likewise, when they artificially restrict access to "the knowledge", they have become a force for evil.

    And now, I grudgingly relinquish the soapbox...
    :D:soapbox::ranton:
     

    6birds

    Shooter
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    Jul 15, 2008
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    "There's a free market for all of the above skills. If you're good (AND YOU MARKET YOURSELF WELL), you will be reasonably paid. Success in most fields is within anyone's grasp - if they can practice and get good."

    That tag line ought to be in every middle and high school in the nation. Well said!
     

    hntrdav

    Plinker
    Rating - 0%
    0   0   0
    Apr 30, 2009
    104
    16
    Madison county
    Man you guys are tough in the unions and I agree that there are alot of lazy people that do abuse what they have. But the unions did establish the 8 hour day and 40 hour week, otherwise the man at the top would have us all working 12 hours a day and at least 6 days a week with no overtime pay.
     

    hntrdav

    Plinker
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    0   0   0
    Apr 30, 2009
    104
    16
    Madison county
    Man you guys are tough on the unions. There are alot of lazy people that abuse what they have. But the unions did establish the 8 hour a day and 40 hour week. Otherwise the man at the top would have us all working 12 hours a day and at least 6 days a week with no overtime pay.
     

    paddling_man

    Master
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    36   0   0
    Jul 17, 2008
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    otherwise the man at the top would have us all working 12 hours a day and at least 6 days a week with no overtime pay.

    That's called "being salary." :D That's me.

    Of course, skill and that dedication gets rewarded locally or you are lured away by headhunters. Even in a down economy, they still call.
     

    6birds

    Shooter
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    Jul 15, 2008
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    Man you guys are tough on the unions. There are alot of lazy people that abuse what they have. But the unions did establish the 8 hour a day and 40 hour week. Otherwise the man at the top would have us all working 12 hours a day and at least 6 days a week with no overtime pay.

    And as a man at the top, I work 12 hr x 6 days too, without any "overtime pay". I am away from my wife and 4 kids often, lining up new business, and train 4-6 weeks per year on new manufacturing processes and techniques to keep the customers happy, and maybe keep a few jobs here.

    It also explains my low tolerance for lazy, ignorant, stupid people. (not you hntrdav, they know who they are)

    Merry Christmas
     
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