UPS and the Union

[Slow Hand]

I love it when people who have little to no real experience rag on something that they really don't know about! I'm a Union Plumber and let me tell you in the construction field, there is no comparison between union and non-union tradesmen. I've worked jobs with non-union electricians, insulators, carpenters, and iron workers. Union construction workers are highly trained wit lots of experience. We go through a five year apprenticeship that is a real learning experience. I can't tell you how many jobs I've seen screwed up by non-union workers that had to be fixed by union contractors. You think we make too much money? Think about this: on jobs where we lose a contract to a non-union contractor, it's usually by only a percentage or two. Their guys make 50-80% of what we make and they are only underbidding us by a couple of percentage points? They pay the same price for pipe and fittings as we do, so where is all that extra cash going? To one or two guys, not the people that do the work. Most non union contractors may have one or two guys on the job that knows what they are doing and a bunch of high school drop out, pot heads that are there for $12/hr. Don't even get me started on the illegal immigrants that work for non-union contractors. One insulating company is SSI and it's known asn 'Spanish Speaking Insulators'. They had one guy who could barely speak English and the rest were fresh from South of the Rio Grande. How's that helping our economy? You think we are all lazy? Come work my job, lets see you guys get out of your office chair for a week and hump around six inch cast iron pipe and see how you like it. In our trade, if you are lazy, you get laid off or fired. There are no special favors for someone who doesn't want to work just because 'they've been doing it for years'. Try to figure out a steam station that if you screw it up could explode, or lets have you put in a med gas system in a hospital where if you make one small mistake and cross up the oxygen and nitrogen lines you kill anyone that breathes it. Do you really want someone who has next to no training doing stuff like that? We work hard, we have decent benefits like self funded insurance and decent retirement. Why would we be pushing for socialized healthcare if we already take care of our own? I'll admit that I've worked on a job at a factory that was UAW and it's a whole different world, but don't ***** about how we are all bad because you've seen on TV that Union workers are killing the auto industry. You want to ***** at a guy who makes $50K a year? How about the big shots that make millions and get that much or more in bonuses every year. There are many differnt kinds of unions and some need house cleaning and others are doing all of us a big favor. And if you don't get paid overtime, work a five day work week or any of the other things we all take for granted then I guess you can say that the Unions aren't doing anything for you lately, if you get to kick back on the weekend and relax, thank a union, because if it weren't for them, we'd all be working seven days a week with no overtime, no healthcare, no vacation, nothing!

 

[Lex Concord]

As a former UPS'er and former member of the Union of Teamsters, Warehousemen and Helpers Union Local 135, I have to offer my

Having worked in the hub both as an hourly union guy and a supervisor, I have to say that, while the union at UPS can be a PITA, they don't have the problems that the automakers have with the big three.

In a truly free market, I would have no problem with unions. Free meaning you can unionize and choose to strike, but the company can also replace you with untrained monkeys if it feels it can maintain its business in that manner.

The problem is not unions, per se, though they were born of socialism, but the government protection offered to unions, as well as the government's willingness to look the other way when union members commit crimes.

I'm not familiar with trade unions, though I don't believe that unions are required for effective apprenticeships to exist.

What I will say, is that after my life at UPS, I did delivery for another company and saw the inside of many UAW shops in central Indiana. Having also known many people who have worked inside such shops as both union and non-union mgmt., I have to agree that the UAW was the cancer that killed the auto industry, and the government was a metastisizing agent in that body.

When a guy packs 3 bumpers in an hour, then takes an hour break (nap), and literally works only 4 hours a day, that is wasteful.

When guys slack so hard when Industrial Engineering is in doing work measurements that the resulting quotas can be filled on Monday, and the rest of the week can be spent playing cards or at the bar, this is sinful.

When a guy on the clock is sitting on his @$$ on a stool on the dock, but can't sign for a package of office supplies because it's not in his job description, it's just ridiculous (I swear his title was "dock guy's buddy").

When a man's only job is to sit on his rear in a little room, smoking cigars, reading the paper, and drinking coffee until the phone rings so he can go check a gauge....well, paging Homer Simpson.

I know one UAW member who goes to work, has pride, and busts his hump making an honest living. I'm sure there are a few other exceptions like him.

The rest I have met tend to be worthless slugs interested in drawing a paycheck.

The UAW, with the complicity of the federal government, bled the auto industry in this country dry.

How many other jobs send buses to the local jail to pick up its employees for work (happens every day in Detroit)?

The UAW is not the only example, but it is the most pertinent of late.

 

[Bigum1969]

As a former UPS'er and former member of the Union of Teamsters, Warehousemen and Helpers Union Local 135, I have to offer my

Having worked in the hub both as an hourly union guy and a supervisor, I have to say that, while the union at UPS can be a PITA, they don't have the problems that the automakers have with the big three.

In a truly free market, I would have no problem with unions. Free meaning you can unionize and choose to strike, but the company can also replace you with untrained monkeys if it feels it can maintain its business in that manner.

The problem is not unions, per se, though they were born of socialism, but the government protection offered to unions, as well as the government's willingness to look the other way when union members commit crimes.

I'm not familiar with trade unions, though I don't believe that unions are required for effective apprenticeships to exist.

What I will say, is that after my life at UPS, I did delivery for another company and saw the inside of many UAW shops in central Indiana. Having also known many people who have worked inside such shops as both union and non-union mgmt., I have to agree that the UAW was the cancer that killed the auto industry, and the government was a metastisizing agent in that body.

When a guy packs 3 bumpers in an hour, then takes an hour break (nap), and literally works only 4 hours a day, that is wasteful.

When guys slack so hard when Industrial Engineering is in doing work measurements that the resulting quotas can be filled on Monday, and the rest of the week can be spent playing cards or at the bar, this is sinful.

When a guy on the clock is sitting on his @$$ on a stool on the dock, but can't sign for a package of office supplies because it's not in his job description, it's just ridiculous (I swear his title was "dock guy's buddy").

When a man's only job is to sit on his rear in a little room, smoking cigars, reading the paper, and drinking coffee until the phone rings so he can go check a gauge....well, paging Homer Simpson.

I know one UAW member who goes to work, has pride, and busts his hump making an honest living. I'm sure there are a few other exceptions like him.

The rest I have met tend to be worthless slugs interested in drawing a paycheck.

The UAW, with the complicity of the federal government, bled the auto industry in this country dry.

How many other jobs send buses to the local jail to pick up its employees for work (happens every day in Detroit)?

The UAW is not the only example, but it is the most pertinent of late.

Excellent post.

Thanks for sharing your insight, perspective and first hand accounts.

 

[Marc]

ups is teamsters

 

[MyGlockRocks19]

I'm in the opposite camp...when I've done ordering or shipping, UPS was far less expensive than FedEx in pricing almost every time. I've dealt with them exclusively for years, and have yet to have a damaged package or even a late one.

As to the topic of unions...well, thats complicated. But I think that had labor unions never existed, the average Joe in this country wouldn't enjoy nearly the quality of life that he does now.

 

[Field King]

Well I am just glad all the executives and sales personnel of all the companys give 100% all the time, no web surfing on company time, or use of company credit cards for vacations, or personal phone calls on company time or? Give me a FREAKIN BREAK guys, the rank and file are not the only one's dickin the dog!

 

[kybares]

Since I am in a union and work at UPS, I should be able to make many of you angry real quick. But I am going to try to take the high road. I will not bash you for your choice to work for a non-union shop. It still is a free country. I respect your right to make your choice. Why can't you show the same decency to those of us that choose to work in a union? That is my choice, I don't see the need to put you down, by what authority do you put me down? My union has never told me who to vote for, and does not tolerate the dead-beats that you so often talk about. UPS still makes a handy profit. The salaried people in my department, their pay is based on my salary, and then they get 10% above that, plus one months salary, plus company issued stock. I do not complain about that. You see, their pay is based on the contract we negotiate, and still make money. As for the socialist issue, I have to laugh at that one. I just traveled to Dubai, Phillipines, Taiwan, Japan, Korea, and China in the last two weeks. And I have been doing this for 20 years. I see first hand what union wages do, and don't do in relation to other forms of pay standards. Believe me, you do not want to live like that. You have a choice, they do not. But I also know that regardless of whether you make the equivalent of union pay or a portion of it, if it was not for union pay scales, you would not enjoy the pay you do. Look at unions as a neccesary evil if you like, but to take up the banner that they are all bad, is in my opinion as wrong as you can get. Sure there have been numerous news commentaries regarding the bad deeds of unions. Surely you have better sources than that. It is funny, I was reading on another post yesterday about a guys girlfriend who was hurt at work, and she was being docked wages and her Christmas bonus. The comments were made, if she were in a union, this would not be tolerated. She was hurt at work, and should be paid. Can't have it both ways. I am not saying unions are for all, but I am one that is thankful they are there. Oh and by the way, Fed-Ex just announced a 10% increase to match UPS's price structure this week. As far as the USPS, there packages are flown now by UPS and Fed-Ex. Their non-union contractors could not get the job done as cheap as we could. Go ahead and flame my now, I am a big enough boy to take it, but my post to those opposing viewpoints was not degrading. Although we are not union brothers, we are still brothers.

 

[Scout]

Come work my job, lets see you guys get out of your office chair for a week and hump around six inch cast iron pipe and see how you like it.

I work 12 hour days, at least 42 hours a week, including every other weekend. My company sends me to school to learn certain things. Last Thursday I spent 9-10 hours replacing a saw gearbox without any breaks.


I'd be interested to know about the other side of the fence, how much education, how much work, and how much money office people make.

 

[Principal Skinr]

If you need a package delivered and not really concerned when it arrives ship it usps, if you need it in a week or so then ship it ups , if you need it delivered or people are gonna die it better go fed ex.

UPS is in better financial shape than Fed Ex. Fed Ex has more debt.

I have a neighbor that worked in management for Fed Ex up until a year ago. He liked the company, but he would have told you of massive problems, and he knows and has stated that UPS is more efficiently run in many ways.

Fed Ex ground is a joke next to UPS, and my neighbor is the one who told me that, as he helped retrieve one of my packages when the driver "couldn't" find my house. It took him 5 days to find the package. The driver took it back and laid it in an office and told no one about it. He's still working there. He didn't die.

Folks, I'm not defending unions or management. I truly believe that anything taken to the extreme becomes bad. Checks and balances are necessary, and there are horror stories on both sides.

Don't tell me that back during the Industrial revolution, that things would have improved in terms of the treatment of workers and pay if everyone had quit to find a better job. They would have starved. Read up on what things were like for workers, and you'll know why unions came to be.
I've been in management long enough to meet plenty of *******es who screw their subordinates at any chance they can get. I also know workers who would screw the employer at any chance they would get.

Don't form your opinions based on horror stories. They are always there. Economic life in this country is more complex than the simple unions are good or bad debate. Our government's unrestrained spending and debt are going to make this debate silly, because it won't matter when inflation is double digit and unemployment continues to climb.

I've dealt first hand with the Indiana State Teacher's Association, and have seen their mindless defense of bad employees. They have gone beyond reason. Far beyond. However, there are organizations that work well with unions and make a profit. How Ford has done it, I don't know, but I admire them, and the UAW guys there are making a quality product.

 

[Fletch]

But I also know that regardless of whether you make the equivalent of union pay or a portion of it, if it was not for union pay scales, you would not enjoy the pay you do.

I disagree. I'm a software engineer ("computer programmer" in colloquial terms, though there is a difference). To my knowledge, this job sector has never been unionized, and likely never will be. Our entry-level pay rose dramatically during the 1990's from basically slave labor ($20k/year) to around $50k, due entirely to market forces as more companies computerized and drove up demand for our services. My own company nearly doubled my salary literally overnight in an attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of workers (it worked on me ). Unions didn't have anything to do with this; supply and demand did.

 

[Principal Skinr]

I disagree. I'm a software engineer ("computer programmer" in colloquial terms, though there is a difference). To my knowledge, this job sector has never been unionized, and likely never will be. Our entry-level pay rose dramatically during the 1990's from basically slave labor ($20k/year) to around $50k, due entirely to market forces as more companies computerized and drove up demand for our services. My own company nearly doubled my salary literally overnight in an attempt to stop the hemorrhaging of workers (it worked on me ). Unions didn't have anything to do with this; supply and demand did.

You are in a skilled position that required, I'm assuming, a college degree. That makes supply of workers with those skill sets much lower. The tech-boom made demand higher. Unions have never been necessary in that situation.

This whole debate is about generalizations, which means anyone making one is part right, part wrong. Like you, I wouldn't stake my position on a generalization in any debate. It just doesn't make sense.

There's good and bad to Unions. We will all shape our opinions on our personal experiences, but it is important to try and rise above that and make judgements on individual situations, as opposed to using an individual situation to make general judgements. I hope that makes sense. Its early in the morning, and I might just be blabbering senselessly into the wind!

 

[Michiana]

Both sides are at fault

I have been a member of one specialized trade union and also the Machinists (IAM) plus thirty years as a supervisor and in top management so I have also seen it all. There are good and bad on both sides, the problem I've experienced is not union workers wages and benefits, it is ridiculous work rules. The union ask for them to protect the losers and the management agrees to them as it is easier to give in than stand their ground. They just pass the cost for wasted production down to their customers until they are no longer competitive and then both sides lose their jobs. The UAW is by far the worse of the worse which is the reason Toyota is now the largest car maker in the world and GM is going down the tube.

The good hard working union guys come to work and do their job and stay out of the union politics; the unions are run by the slackers and protect their voting block by bargaining for protection for these slackers. The hard working union members are afraid to speak up for fear of being ridiculed by the “favored ones.” Something like what happens on some forums.

 

[Fletch]

You are in a skilled position that required, I'm assuming, a college degree. That makes supply of workers with those skill sets much lower. The tech-boom made demand higher. Unions have never been necessary in that situation.

That's the funniest thing. In this industry, college degrees are generally treated like used toilet paper. To the extent that employers (the smart ones, anyway) rely on pedigrees, they're looking for private sector certification, not degrees from institutions of higher learning. This is because it's entirely possible to get a doctorate in Computer Science and still not know how to write a program that actually works. At my first job, we had dozens of such individuals. I don't know of any schools that turn out honest-to-goodness, "I know how to design, implement, and troubleshoot a program" grads.

The last two organizations I've worked for (including my present employer) don't even put stock in the certifications... I have neither a degree nor any certifications, and it's the same with most of my coworkers. What we are is a carefully assembled team of college dropouts and other miscreants who get the job done. Such people are harder to find, of course, but there are ways to identify them in an interview, and we pass over dozens of "qualified" pedigrees every time we open a position. My last organization still hasn't filled the open slot that I left over 2 years ago, because they can't find anyone that fits, despite 3 rounds of applications and interviews in a college town with an enormous applicant pool.

It doesn't take a union to guarantee quality workers, and it doesn't take a union to find useless ones either. I'm neither for nor against unions on either basis. The only beef I have with unions is collusion with government. I see nothing wrong with workers freely deciding to organize, and I see nothing wrong with management hiring scabs to keep the business rolling if the union goes on strike. Once one party or the other introduces violence (including the indirect violence of government) into the equation, that party has lost any claim to the moral high ground.

 

[ATF Consumer]

That's the funniest thing. In this industry, college degrees are generally treated like used toilet paper. To the extent that employers (the smart ones, anyway) rely on pedigrees, they're looking for private sector certification, not degrees from institutions of higher learning. This is because it's entirely possible to get a doctorate in Computer Science and still not know how to write a program that actually works. At my first job, we had dozens of such individuals. I don't know of any schools that turn out honest-to-goodness, "I know how to design, implement, and troubleshoot a program" grads.

The last two organizations I've worked for (including my present employer) don't even put stock in the certifications... I have neither a degree nor any certifications, and it's the same with most of my coworkers. What we are is a carefully assembled team of college dropouts and other miscreants who get the job done. Such people are harder to find, of course, but there are ways to identify them in an interview, and we pass over dozens of "qualified" pedigrees every time we open a position. My last organization still hasn't filled the open slot that I left over 2 years ago, because they can't find anyone that fits, despite 3 rounds of applications and interviews in a college town with an enormous applicant pool.

It doesn't take a union to guarantee quality workers, and it doesn't take a union to find useless ones either. I'm neither for nor against unions on either basis. The only beef I have with unions is collusion with government. I see nothing wrong with workers freely deciding to organize, and I see nothing wrong with management hiring scabs to keep the business rolling if the union goes on strike. Once one party or the other introduces violence (including the indirect violence of government) into the equation, that party has lost any claim to the moral high ground.

I am a college dropout...only have 2 semesters under my belt and I have worked in several high paying tech positions, and it is the hands on experience and the capacity to figure things out that get you the high paying jobs. There was certainly no need for a union to negotiate good pay for me, I did that all on my own. Sometimes I couldn't immediately get the high pay I was seeking, so I'd start out where I could and quickly work my way up the chain.

The whole argument about the need for unions in the early industrial age is not anything to disagree with, but times are drastically different now and there are rules and laws that now protect the employee that were not once there. I truly see no need for the union in today's world unless you support socialism practices within the free market. Seriously, of the few union positions I have been in, if it were not for the collecting of fees and dues from my paycheck, I would not have even know they were there to support me. But what exactly is it that union can do for me that I could not do on my own? At least two of the union jobs I had, I felt I was actually being under paid for my services, but the union wasn't there to help me negotiate a higher wage.
The one thing I do know about unions is their protectionism of their "portion of the market" and how it affected the overall profit of the company that sells union printing. What I mean by that is referring to the Graphic Communications Conference of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters . For seven years, I have owned a print shop that was non-union. We were forbidden to print any material that had the union bug on them. One of my largest customers was a union shop, and there was a sizable portion of the work they outsourced to us had the union bug on them. We were of course, less expensive of a printer than the union printer they normally used, and had to reject this work because of the union bug. The union will sue your butt off if you print their material, due to copyright infringements, rightly so. My customer would then have to send it to another printer that was union, which was also higher priced which resulted in less profit for them in the end.
They finally figured out how to get around the problem by sending me the jobs without the union bug on them, then once they got the finished job back to their shop, they would then run it back through one of their presses to print the union bug. That was still cheaper for them than directly sending the job to a union shop.
One thing I have noticed being a printer, when you start to get campaign flyers and postcards mailed to you, a quick way to determine if they are running as a Democrat or Republican is to see if you can find the union bug on the printed material. 9 times out of 10, the union bug will be on the Democrat candidate, but not on the Republican or Independent candidate. It is purely their support for the union.

 

[Principal Skinr]

True on the college degrees, , and not to hijack the thread, but when supply is down and demand is up, the degree will result in better pay, if you don't know someone out there with experience. Not everyone out there has or can prove experience and competence. By no means does a degree guarantee anything, but it is a starting point. A resume doesn't guarantee anything, either. Ever seen a fudged resume?

On another note, I've been thinking about putting "Community Organizer" on mine. That seems to have gotten someone pretty far...

 

[Dryden]

On another note, I've been thinking about putting "Community Organizer" on mine. That seems to have gotten someone pretty far...

Oooooo.... great advice. Difficult to check on, no requirements and no goals to fulfill. It's perfect. Why didn't someone else think of that?

 

[misconfig]

This is because it's entirely possible to get a doctorate in Computer Science and still not know how to write a program that actually works. At my first job, we had dozens of such individuals. I don't know of any schools that turn out honest-to-goodness, "I know how to design, implement, and troubleshoot a program" grads.

While I agree with most of what you said - being a fellow IT worker myself, I must say in the defense of SOME of these CS majors is there are a LOT of different needs in the CS field. Sure a guy that can work touring machine problems all day long may impress most but a the end of the day, he can't hack himself out of a paper bag - is worthless.

I do know some CS guys that are so incredibly brilliant I envy them, albeit they can't code worth a crap; but that deep level of knowledge of algorithms such as data structures, btrees and finite state automaton's really helps the actual coding team out.

I myself have no college degree and I would challenge any other Unix administrator vs my skills, college is simply a way to get your foot in the door these days. I've always had been an autodidact and I think anyone claiming to be familiar with a particular field should be willing to learn everything they can as well.

My automation // Perl programming skills are bar none - I had no schooling.


The bottom line is - without unions people are paid for what a job is worth. If you owned a business and could hire a guy to throw boxes all day off of a belt for minimum wage vs someone who is union and demands $15 + and hour.. who are you going to pick?

The fact is, most unionized jobs can be done by anyone - excluding of course the true tradesmen, electricians, carpenters steel workers etc.

 

[hornadylnl]

Or mob rule.

I have been a member of one specialized trade union and also the Machinists (IAM) plus thirty years as a supervisor and in top management so I have also seen it all. There are good and bad on both sides, the problem I've experienced is not union workers wages and benefits, it is ridiculous work rules. The union ask for them to protect the losers and the management agrees to them as it is easier to give in that stand their ground. They just pass the cost for wasted production down to their customers until they are no longer competitive and then both sides lose their jobs. The UAW is by far the worse of the worse which is the reason Toyota is now the largest car maker in the world and GM is going down the tube.

The good hard working union guys come to work and do their job and stay out of the union politics; the unions are run by the slackers and protect their voting block by bargaining for protection for these slackers. The hard working union members are afraid to speak up for fear of being ridiculed by the “favored ones.” Something like what happens on some forums.

 

[Mudcat]

I have been a member of one specialized trade union and also the Machinists (IAM) plus thirty years as a supervisor and in top management so I have also seen it all. There are good and bad on both sides, the problem I've experienced is not union workers wages and benefits, it is ridiculous work rules. The union ask for them to protect the losers and the management agrees to them as it is easier to give in that stand their ground. They just pass the cost for wasted production down to their customers until they are no longer competitive and then both sides lose their jobs. The UAW is by far the worse of the worse which is the reason Toyota is now the largest car maker in the world and GM is going down the tube.

The good hard working union guys come to work and do their job and stay out of the union politics; the unions are run by the slackers and protect their voting block by bargaining for protection for these slackers. The hard working union members are afraid to speak up for fear of being ridiculed by the “favored ones.” Something like what happens on some forums.

This is so true. There are good workers that are union no doubt, but the slackers and system riders far out number them. I know non union carpenters, finishers, electricians and welders that will work MOST union members of the same trade in the ground. Just because a person is union does not mean they know their job, we have all seen those types. Just like a person being nonunion does not mean they do not know how to do their job.

That being said I like UPS because the fed ex drivers can never find my house after dark. But then again the UPS driver is a friend and knows where my drive is even in the dark.

 

[Michiana]

This is so true. There are good workers that are union no doubt, but the slackers and system riders far out number them. I know non union carpenters, finishers, electricians and welders that will work MOST union members of the same trade in the ground. Just because a person is union does not mean they know their job, we have all seen those types. Just like a person being nonunion does not mean they do not know how to do their job. .

From my experience inside unions and outside having to deal with them I find that they are run by a small minority who are very active. The union guys who remain very active in their union usually need a union to keep their job. I started off as a apprentice and got pulled into the union activity by a couple friends. I quickly learned that a few pot stiring people would always be wispering in my ear to do this or that or go tell management they are being unfair, etc. The pot stirers alway seem to let someone else take the heat. I quickly discovered that being a active union person was taking me no where and got into supervison at the first opportunity.

Most union members (UAW being the exception) are in the union because they have to be to work there, not because they need the union. They would probably be making more if the company did not have to overpay the goofballs the union protects. Look at the attendance at monthly union meeting to gage the interest from the rank and file. The good guys mind their own business and stay out of the politics and the few loud mouths control the unions.

Lazy managers find it easier to give in the the union at contract time then hold the line on the off the wall "job protection" demands. Like everyplace else in life the small minorities seem to always run the show because they use intimidation to get their way. Most people are sheep, not wolves and just fall in line to avoid confortation with co-workers.