UNONS RIGHT TO WORK AND OTHER RAMBLINGS

[jeremy]

He would have to be payed at least $48.07 per hour to make 100K per year. I think there was a lot of overtime involved, but I'm Happy he could make a good living, and provide for his family.

Heck, I make around $90K a year in a non-union job, but with a lot of overtime. I know people who make a lot more but live on the road, working 7 days a week.

Ohhhh, I am sure there was "overtime" involved. Just not him working it to get the pay...

 

[jeremy]

It seems that when I post something like this everyone jumps on one sentence to discuss.
I fully realize the contribution of unions and union labor to our economy and our society. however, I feel that in many cases they have outgrown their usefullness and completely lost track of their intended purpose.
My biggest concern is how union benefits and retirement are funded and managed. With many current contracts these are funded with future earnings. Like borrowing money for your retirement.

They are funded just like the example they were built from Social Security....

 

[JBrockman]

As a former member of the US Steel Workers Union/Indianapolis I support the Right to Work agenda! The unions were good in the day but they became to big and powerful! Ever wonder why a new car cost as much as a house did a few years ago! Involved now with a community building project, if we had to use the unionized workers for this project it would have cost 30 to 40 % more which means this new fire station would not be built! I keep hearing the union fanatics saying that if this passes the quality of work will drop! I do not believe this at all as I have worked in union and non-union shops. I would much rather work with the non-union people, union workers have gotten lazy and greedy!

 

[Tactical Dave]

CB, I'd appreciate some links and data to support your claim about union members who make $100k. I work with lots of union guys. Most make $40-55 if they can find work all year. Not saying you're wrong, but I can't think of any in Indiana unless they work a ton of overtime.

I work with a guy who is at $30 an hour (union) and he cleared 100k last year.... but we also minimum of 50-60 hours a week year round and on his contract (he was moved from another department) ever hour over 8 in a day is OT.


I knew guys in aviation making $30 an hour and would clear around 100k but that was perdiom with OT.

My limited knowledge of union wage comes from people I know and talk to who work or worked an the Ford Steering gear plant and the GM stamping plant in town.
I don't claim that all union workers are that well compensated just pointing out an example.
By the way my son is a union electricial in PA and his son is making more as a welded that Eric does as a commercial electrician. Nothing is fair or equal

I work with a guy that worked at the Ford steering plant.... from what he says it was a nice place to work. Said his boss let him pick his own shift (he was in machine maintenance) and said he would go in SUPER early and when it boss came in he would hang around for an hour and go home.... did not have to deal with managers and lots of people ect ect. Said though that when he started he was not driving a Ford and they put pressure on him to go buy one hahaha.

 

[longbarrel]

I must be in a different union than most people are use to. I work 60-100 hours a week and barely make $60k a year, can most definitely get fired (have seen several people do so) for whatever reason the company decides to write on my pink slip, have yet to hear about any member of my union in a violent protest/extortion plot/or use threat tactics, and if you're let go from a couple employers for drugs/being late/violence in the workplace/slacking off you can be required to retrain, or lose your book if it is serious or happens too many times.

I can understand why people would have a bad opinion of unions if that is what people believe the norm to be.

People only know what Uncle Charlie, or Neil Cavuto tell them, for the most part. If the guys in the car factories did nothing, how did the cars get made? How do buildings get built? How to factories operate? It doesn't happen by......wait for it, magic. Not saying that it wasn't/isn't wrong to sit and do nothing, but that was an agreed to contract by both labor(union) and management(smart guys in suits)So even if you can blame a union worker, you also have to blame the management. That is what collective bargaining is. And just for the record, I have no affiliation to the UAW or the management at any present or former UAW plant.

 

[longbarrel]

As a former member of the US Steel Workers Union/Indianapolis I support the Right to Work agenda! The unions were good in the day but they became to big and powerful! Ever wonder why a new car cost as much as a house did a few years ago! Involved now with a community building project, if we had to use the unionized workers for this project it would have cost 30 to 40 % more which means this new fire station would not be built! I keep hearing the union fanatics saying that if this passes the quality of work will drop! I do not believe this at all as I have worked in union and non-union shops. I would much rather work with the non-union people, union workers have gotten lazy and greedy!

Aren't you a fireman?????????

 

[nailknocker]

I spent my entire working life in union construction. The trade unions are vastly different from the manufacturing unions.

I don't know of any trade unions that have any paid holidays, vacations, birthdays or anything else. The trade unions negoatiate hours of work, pay, perdium, most have a retirement plan of some sort, and medical coverage.

There is no seniority, if you perform, the contractor will keep you for the next job, or request you from the hall if you work out of a hall, most halls work off of a list, if you are laid off first, you go back to work first. I personally didn't work for a hall, so i'm not that well versed in their operation.

In my union you lived and died by your reputation.

Unions don't make people lazy, lazy usually came first, and unfortuatley some unions would protect that ability.

 

[churchmouse]

45 years in my trade, 20 of it union. I am done with organized labor for more reasons than I will list here. They are beyond their usefulness. I am doing fine with out them and making the same money with better insurance. They miss-managed my retirement annuity and I lost a big chunk that will never be recovered. The retirement fund is on the verge of Gov. takeover from theme miss-managing that as well. Thugs, thieves and villans operating on your money. Damn, sounds like our Gov.

 

[churchmouse]

I spent my entire working life in union construction. The trade unions are vastly different from the manufacturing unions.

I don't know of any trade unions that have any paid holidays, vacations, birthdays or anything else. The trade unions negoatiate hours of work, pay, perdium, most have a retirement plan of some sort, and medical coverage.

There is no seniority, if you perform, the contractor will keep you for the next job, or request you from the hall if you work out of a hall, most halls work off of a list, if you are laid off first, you go back to work first. I personally didn't work for a hall, so i'm not that well versed in their operation.

In my union you lived and died by your reputation.

Unions don't make people lazy, lazy usually came first, and unfortuatley some unions would protect that ability.

You have never spent enough time around a UAW facility. It will open your eyes. It did mine. First hand knowledge. Lazy, Lazy, Lazy.

 

[nailknocker]

I worked in many UAW facilities in my career, and I agree with you one hundred percent.

As stated in one of the earlier posts, management was as much at fault as the unions, they were awash in money and could always pass it on to the consumer, look at them now!

 

[Tactical Dave]

Good example of what can happen when a union does to much. Back before 9/11 when UNITED airlines was doing good everyone made GOOD money, got lots of perks, flew to Europe for the weekends and the trips cost them next to nothing.

Even the cleaners made about what the aircraft mechanics made.

Unions wanted everyone to make more money and they kept getting it and management agreed to it. A tech would have a job that would take another five minutes before the piece it was working on would be ready to cure and he would just take his lunch 5 minutes later and then after lunch the piece would be done and he could install it...... from what I am told by MANY the union would come down on you like a ton of bricks and force you to take your lunch on time. You would and then would have to do the five minutes of work and then watch paint dry for 30 minutes or more.... I am sure you can see those dollar signs flying out the window. It was quite often that the union would come tell you that you are working to hard and to go play cards for a while.... For anyone that thinks the grunts loved this many of them hated it because they saw the dollars going out the window and wasted time and the smart ones saw were it was going. They also had these so many hours worked with not time loss due to injury banners or whatever that I saw and was told it was a lie and was due to management. Someone would get hurt and the company would send a limo to pic you up, take you to lunch, drive you home, and they would sit you behined a desk and tell you to watch a screen all day..... that way they could say there was no time lost because of injury............ because you were still able to "work". From what people told me this infuriated pretty much all of labor. if you got hurt the company would still make you come to work.



American Trans Air... similar issue, everyone made good money. 9/11 came and management told everyone that everyone needed to take a pay cut to make ends meet and everyone turned it down......... they went belly up not long after.


Guys from both companies are now working for other companies sometimes in the same building making A LOT less and less benefits. The ATA guys are making less then what they would have with a pay cut.... at least that is what some of those techs told me.



I have always pointed one finger at management and one an the union for any shop.... both have to agree to the contract and both can screw up.

 

[gvbcraig]

CB, I'd appreciate some links and data to support your claim about union members who make $100k. I work with lots of union guys. Most make $40-55 if they can find work all year. Not saying you're wrong, but I can't think of any in Indiana unless they work a ton of overtime.

2,000 hours a year at$55 per hour is $110,000 a year, what other data do you need? I'm using the rate you quoted.

 

[MrYesterday]

He meant $55,000 a year, not $55 an hour. Way to bring back a month old post though. lol

 

[dhnorris]

2,000 hours a year at$55 per hour is $110,000 a year, what other data do you need? I'm using the rate you quoted.

perhaps you can imagine the joy in a family mans heart when he's been rained out three days in a row and the house payment is due next week, no body makes 55 per hour they always say **** like that that includes benefits, i bet your rate is up there above 35 per hour as well no sick day no paid holidays no guarenteed 2000 hours a year.

 

[dross]

My father was a union pipefitter and welder, and believed strongly in the union.

Here are some of the things I was taught growing up:

1. It's a lie that working harder gets you ahead.
2. When you're working by the hour you owe the man paying you to work that full hour. You shouldn't try to work fast, or get more done yesterday than you did today. If you do, you're just cheating a fellow working man out of a job, and making a rich man richer.
3. When we went to the movies, I was taught to leave my trash on the floor. Why? Because there's a guy who gets paid to clean the theater, and if everyone threw away their own trash, he'd be out of a job.
4. A business man is a parasite who makes his living off the sweat of the working man.
5. You should be against any kind of machinery that helps get a job done quicker. That's just a way to cheat the working man.

There were many others like this, and I heard them from all the people I knew who worked in the various construction unions back in the sixties and seventies. These guys mostly worked large government projects like nuclear plants and defense sites and such.

The core philosophy of a union is anti-production.

 

[MrYesterday]

The core philosophy of a union is anti-production.

Insightful

I'm getting tired of seeing people say "The Union". There is no such thing as "The Union". There are Labor Unions, production unions, teacher's unions, firefighter's unions, LEO unions, Screen Actor's unions, Screen Writer's unions, and the list goes on.

If you don't keep up production in my line of work, they replace you with someone who does, period. If you get fired from 3 jobs for lack of production you have to be retrained at the hall. If you get fired again for lack of production, you loose your book (you're no longer a member).

Just because you know about one union, doesn't give you insight into another. Then again, that's kind of like explaining the falsehoods of stereotypes to a racist.

 

[dross]

Insightful

I'm getting tired of seeing people say "The Union". There is no such thing as "The Union". There are Labor Unions, production unions, teacher's unions, firefighter's unions, LEO unions, Screen Actor's unions, Screen Writer's unions, and the list goes on.

If you don't keep up production in my line of work, they replace you with someone who does, period. If you get fired from 3 jobs for lack of production you have to be retrained at the hall. If you get fired again for lack of production, you loose your book (you're no longer a member).

Just because you know about one union, doesn't give you insight into another. Then again, that's kind of like explaining the falsehoods of stereotypes to a racist.

Listen carefully. You keep wanting to make this personal. Look over my posts CAREFULLY. I don't ever say THE UNION as if there is only one. I don't say ALWAYS unless I've written sloppily or I actually mean ALWAYS.

Read this carefully:

The core philosophy behind a union is anti-production.

Unions are not individual in this way. Some may be less effective at promoting anti-production policies, but if a union is negotiating a collective bargaining agreement, that is BY ITS VERY NATURE unproductive.

Does that mean that you can be in a union and fired for poor production? YES!

Does that mean that lots of guys in unions can be productive, some of them even more productive than some non-union guys? YES!

Your arguments are like the ones when someone says, "Raising your prices can cost you business," and you reply, "Huh uh! No way! A store in my neighborhood raised its prices and my brother in law shopped there even more!"

Unions, IN GENERAL, operate in certain ways. Some operated differently.

ALL UNIONS ARE LESS PRODUCTIVE THAN THE ALTERNATIVE.

It's like saying living under a particular king isn't tyranny because he's easygoing and has kind policies. No matter how benevolent, a dictatorship is tyranny, period.

Having to buy labor as a collective and manage according to a contract is less productive than the flexibility of buying that labor individually. Period. Fact. Ironclad. It holds true even if in an individual case it worked out differently. These aren't the only two factors.

There. Please never again think I'm insulting YOU by my explanations how how unions operate IN GENERAL.

 

[churchmouse]

Grew up in a UAW house, Dad was a lifer at Allisons. Heard all the things dross speaks of. Have seen it 1st hand myself. It is for the most part true. Worked as a service tech out of the local for 20 of the 44 years I have been in the trades. Left over the politics of dancing. Had the liberal view point pounded up my a$$ for 20 years. Saw the miss-management of retirement and annuity funds to the point the Feds. are looking at both. Saw monies going to liberal campaigns. Sick of the crap and the lies.
Non union now and getting the same wage and better insurance. Retirement, never will be an issue for me. I will retire when the lights go out and the lid is being closed.

 

[churchmouse]

Listen carefully. You keep wanting to make this personal. Look over my posts CAREFULLY. I don't ever say THE UNION as if there is only one. I don't say ALWAYS unless I've written sloppily or I actually mean ALWAYS.

Read this carefully:

The core philosophy behind a union is anti-production.

Unions are not individual in this way. Some may be less effective at promoting anti-production policies, but if a union is negotiating a collective bargaining agreement, that is BY ITS VERY NATURE unproductive.

Does that mean that you can be in a union and fired for poor production? YES!

Does that mean that lots of guys in unions can be productive, some of them even more productive than some non-union guys? YES!

Your arguments are like the ones when someone says, "Raising your prices can cost you business," and you reply, "Huh uh! No way! A store in my neighborhood raised its prices and my brother in law shopped there even more!"

Unions, IN GENERAL, operate in certain ways. Some operated differently.

ALL UNIONS ARE LESS PRODUCTIVE THAN THE ALTERNATIVE.

It's like saying living under a particular king isn't tyranny because he's easygoing and has kind policies. No matter how benevolent, a dictatorship is tyranny, period.

Having to buy labor as a collective and manage according to a contract is less productive than the flexibility of buying that labor individually. Period. Fact. Ironclad. It holds true even if in an individual case it worked out differently. These aren't the only two factors.

There. Please never again think I'm insulting YOU by my explanations how how unions operate IN GENERAL.

A bit sensitive aren't they. Those who cry out the loudest have the most to loose..usually

 

[MrYesterday]

I do take it personally, because a lot of people are making broad generalizations about all unions on here. Now I see why all of the union guys are messaging me saying it's not worth standing up for our particular unions. All most people have are ideas, or experiences about one union or another, and then it gets spread to every union. They're stereotypes, and they're just as ignorant when placed on unions as when placed on religion, sexual preferences, and race.

I understand that the bargaining process can be inherently slow. That's why WE (my particular union) do our bargaining, and pre-jobs (contract drafting processes) in the off-seasons, and before jobs are scheduled. We also lay 1 1/2 miles of 42" pipe a day, compared to our non-union counterpart's 3/4-1 mile a day with a comparably sized crew.

Just so you know, I'm not calling you ignorant and I'm not trying to single you out. I'm just tired of getting on here and feeling like everyone's calling me lazy and slow all of the time because I chose to join a union, so I could better provide for myself and my family.

Anti-Gunners say all gun owners are redneck nut jobs with little %i*ks , self-esteem issues, and plans to overthrow the government. It seems fine around here if people get irritated and speak out against them when they talk $hi+. Us union members, however, stand up for OUR union's particular set of values, and work ethics and we get bashed harder than any anti-gunner's words with a lot of "If there's smoke, there's fire." innuendo.