Unions: Tool of the Free-Market, or key to it's destruction?

[Jack Ryan]

I pose this question to our liberty-minded free-marketeers.

Are unions a necessary part of Free-Market Capitalism?

Or are they merely a tool of eventually overthrowing Capitalism?




I had a discussion today about what is happening at the steel mills in NWI. Sometime last year they had to reduce the workforce any way they could, without violating the stringent union contracts. Subsequently, there have been a substantial number of union workers who volunteered to be laid off, and still receive 90% pay while staying at home. Some have remained on this status for as long as 12 months, and counting.

Is it any wonder why we are in the position we are in?

The entire Northwest Indiana region depends on the success of the local steel mills. And they have been forced by the union to adopt utterly FAILED business models.

No business can pay people to sit at home, and last long.

No business can afford to give everyone 3% raises, every other year, when profits have not gone up by 3%. Not to mention it makes the products more expensive and harder to sell.


I'm sorry, but the culmination of everything I have experienced around unions is basically a Stick-it-to-the-company-at-all-costs, protect-the-slackers, "ME" mentality. Not to mention your union dues almost certainly fund the Democratic Socialist Party.

I'm glad to have a job in these times... I can't imagine trying to "blackball" my boss into raising his expenses and making it harder to sell our services.

Unions are the BOOOOOGYMAAAN! BOOOOO BOOOO!

Better check under your bed tonight. You might dream you got a raise tonight or wake up with a better job in them morning, BOOOO BOOOO. They are out to get you Walmart workers....

 

[rambone]

Haha, ok Jack.

 

[tuoder]

Do people not have the freedom to associate and assemble with whomever they wish however they wish? Do companies and corporations not conspire to extract the most value out of workers and to have the laws changed? Why should workers be denied the same rights as companies?

 

[hornadylnl]

Do people not have the freedom to associate and assemble with whomever they wish however they wish? Do companies and corporations not conspire to extract the most value out of workers and to have the laws changed? Why should workers be denied the same rights as companies?

I guess when employers can put their goons at their employee driveways and prevent them from coming and going or vandalizing their employee's property, you might have a point. Employees have all the rights in the world. Go find another job.

 

[tuoder]

I guess when employers can put their goons at their employee driveways and prevent them from coming and going or vandalizing their employee's property, you might have a point. Employees have all the rights in the world. Go find another job.

I'm not saying a union never did anything wrong. I'm aware of many instances of misdeeds and crimes they've committed. Surely you wouldn't deny that many people have been wronged by employers.

But fundamentally, to deny people the right to peaceably assemble and negotiate for a fair share of what they produce is wrong.

 

[hornadylnl]

I'm not saying a union never did anything wrong. I'm aware of many instances of misdeeds and crimes they've committed. Surely you wouldn't deny that many people have been wronged by employers.

But fundamentally, to deny people the right to peaceably assemble and negotiate for a fair share of what they produce is wrong.

I've never been prevented from walking out and quitting a job whenever I felt like it. Except the Army of course.

If you are treated that poorly and underpaid, leave. If that lousy employer can't find anyone to do the work for the pay and conditions they are offering, they must improve or go out of business. Why does the government have to legalize extortion in the form of unions to accomplish that? The free market does it on it's own.

ETA: I won't deny the right of employees to assemble and negotiate so long as they don't use their government supported thug tactics to bully me into doing so. If you have a fundamental right to assemble and negotiate, your employer has a fundamental right to throw you out on your ass and find another employee that is willing to do the work.

 

[E5RANGER375]

unions protect the lazy and the hard working from the big and small companies that wanna sh*t on their employees. as long as it protects both kinds of employees equaly then i see no problems with unions in the workplace in that regard. although it always sucks to see people get away with doing nothing while you bust your butt because you have strong work ethics.

i think unions do ruin the productivity of our nation though, and anyone who denys that is lying to yourself. i undertsand union members sticking up for unions in public because your jobs at stake. but i belong to a "union family" which means i have family members in unions, and i hear the stories folks. its organized lazyness. thats what i think of unions. but whatever. i dont care. theres much bigger fish to fry in our nation right now rather than unions.

 

[tuoder]

I've never been prevented from walking out and quitting a job whenever I felt like it. Except the Army of course.

If you are treated that poorly and underpaid, leave. If that lousy employer can't find anyone to do the work for the pay and conditions they are offering, they must improve or go out of business. Why does the government have to legalize extortion in the form of unions to accomplish that? The free market does it on it's own.

ETA: I won't deny the right of employees to assemble and negotiate so long as they don't use their government supported thug tactics to bully me into doing so. If you have a fundamental right to assemble and negotiate, your employer has a fundamental right to throw you out on your ass and find another employee that is willing to do the work.

You're hardly in an equal bargaining position with many employers. They have all of the leverage when it comes to many jobs. Nobody has got a right to a job, but people also don't deserve the type of treatment that led tot he creation of unions in the first place. Where unions are too powerful, the company withers and dies in the face of competition. Where they aren't strong enough, people are mistreated.

 

[Eddie]

You're hardly in an equal bargaining position with many employers. They have all of the leverage when it comes to many jobs. Nobody has got a right to a job, but people also don't deserve the type of treatment that led tot he creation of unions in the first place. Where unions are too powerful, the company withers and dies in the face of competition. Where they aren't strong enough, people are mistreated.

I think it was covered in some of the posts above but, IMO, a group of workers banding together and offering to sell their collective skills is fine with me. An employer declining to do business with that group and going with someone who will work cheaper is fine too. The problems come when A) One or both sides resorts to committing crimes to force the other side to negotiate and when B) The government steps in and says that one side or the other has to negotiate.

Unions are fine as a tool for marketing labor so long as the employer is free to choose whether or not they want to buy that labor. Individuals should also be free to decline membership in a union if they don't want to join.

 

[djl02]

Irishfan sounds like a Unionguy. I have never worked in a union, so I don't know, but I have never heard anything good about companies once they are unionized. Look at the Cost of Making automobiles in this country. It isn't the materials as much as you would think. Why does one person putting screws into Sideview mirrors get paid $70/hr (though like $25 goes to the union)? The only reason companies like subaru and Toyota moved to this country was they negotiated the contracts before moving here and they wanted in on things that only American Made cars are allowed to do (Nascar, Poss. Gov Contracts, etc..)

just a couple points. Fords pays around 26 an hr Toyota pays around 26 an hr as well.Ones union ones not.This senerio, hows the union breaking the company? I was a union member and representative for over 20 years.I'll tell you theres good and bad workers in any field.The bad ones usually get weeded out their selves.Not always.Talking about profits,our CEO made 450 million a year with salary and stock options. So the company I worked for use to cry about profits,2 tier wages,cutting benifits,raising premiums,all the usual stuff,but refused to take a wage consession,their selves.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for a company that thinks their board deserves so much and their workforce has to eat crap.
I'm sure this is the norm for any Fortune 500 company. Guess you had to be there.Union is only as good as its people. Period

 

[Goosepond Monster]

I feel that unions had a purpose when they were established, but I feel they have served that purpose. It seems to me that unions drive everyone towards the middle. You don't get rewarded for doing your job well and you don't get disciplined if you don't perform the job as best as you can.

I worked as a contractor at GM Allison in Speedway and dealt with union folks on a regular basis. While many of them were nice guys and did their job, some of them were flat out lazy and refused to do anything not in their job description. My crew pulled oil samples off of decommissioned machinery and had to have an oiler with us while we worked. One specific plant had an oiler who did not want to work with us (he'd rather hide in his work area and sleep) so they had to hold a guy over from night shift and bring a guy in early from the evening shift who both received overtime for working with us. So that is eight hours of overtime pay because one person did not want leave his cubbie hole. I suspect similar things happen all over the various UAW plants.

I will also give the UAW folks credit for being very, very creative in finding ways to sleep during their shift without being found by their supervisors.

 

[88GT]

just a couple points. Fords pays around 26 an hr Toyota pays around 26 an hr as well.Ones union ones not.This senerio, hows the union breaking the company? I was a union member and representative for over 20 years.I'll tell you theres good and bad workers in any field.The bad ones usually get weeded out their selves.Not always.Talking about profits,our CEO made 450 million a year with salary and stock options. So the company I worked for use to cry about profits,2 tier wages,cutting benifits,raising premiums,all the usual stuff,but refused to take a wage consession,their selves.
I have a hard time feeling sorry for a company that thinks their board deserves so much and their workforce has to eat crap.
I'm sure this is the norm for any Fortune 500 company. Guess you had to be there.Union is only as good as its people. Period

Yeah, justifying collectivization with good ol' class warfare.

 

[gunsisgood]

I pose this question to our liberty-minded free-marketeers.

Are unions a necessary part of Free-Market Capitalism?

Or are they merely a tool of eventually overthrowing Capitalism?

Labor unions are a pathetic joke and
without question are destroying this country.

 

[ruger7722]

i always make over union scale because i will do my work and other workers tell me to slow down or try to take credit for my doubling what they do.its a fact.you either hate me or like me very much there is no middle ground.i make sure there is no middle ground.out of 100 union workers there are five i know and have worked with,and about four they say are as good and fast as the other 91 put together.i am talking about a multiple task job.there are go getters and the rest are fillers.i am talking about caulkers in this post.i know one of them is a member on here,i worked w/ for twelve years.you out there chris v.

 

[djl02]

Labor unions are a pathetic joke and
without question are destroying this country.

How are they doing that? What union has such power? you might be right ,I can only speak of what I have experienced with unions.

 

[NordicHeathenVinlander]

Unions, to me a are a joke.



I didnt live the eras prior to they're existance, nor during they're revolution and I might be abit misinformed on the topic, But I think Unions are pure garbage.

Getting paid for nothing? Horse crap if you ask me.

And who'd the money go to? Back to elitist?

 

[Boilers]

I grew up in a UAW household, went to business school, and worked for management supervising hourly staff. There are pros and cons on having and not having a labor union, imo.

The speech by Ron Gettlefinger I listened to on the way to work this morning, however, was a bit disturbing and too much theater. Sound more like Chavez than a level-headed union representative, unfortunately. The UAW I feel will do better without him. However, I do not know much about Mr. King that is prognosticated to replace him.

Audio of his speech is found in this automotive news podcast. Very odd speech, imo.

Worldwide Automotive Report - Download free podcast episodes by WWJ on iTunes.

 

[djl02]

I think alot of people have the wrong interpetation of what a union is. A union is a body of members that have a representitive to negotiate a contract, to be upheld by both parties. Like our Constitution.To work without a contract would be like living under a dictatorship.Paid for nothing? You had a poor steward then. I bearly had time for a break. Union Labor paid too much? Our pay was only 2 percent of CPC. Destroying this country?

 

[red_zr24x4]

Just wanted to say this........I am a union Ironworker out of Local 44, Cincinnati,OH. and I can't really relate to how some people are defining unions............

I don't know about shop unions, but I DO know that in my trade , if you are lazy and not motivated, you are not working.....When you are on the job you are busy and productive, if not, you are hit in the ass with a check by lunch....your name is everything in our trade, if you are a good worker you will work, if you are a slug you will not, period.
We have our own definition of these lazy idiots..."hall trash".

Once upon a time you could get by being a lazy dirt bag sponging off the union, eating up their benefits, staying laid off all the time, waiting for the easy jobs, I can tell you that this just isn't possible anymore, times have changed....


I'm a union pipefitter and this is how it is everywhere I've ever worked. The companies I've worked for if your an Operator, laborer, pipefitter it doesn't matter if your a slug you dont stay around

 

[djl02]

Just wanted to say this........I am a union Ironworker out of Local 44, Cincinnati,OH. and I can't really relate to how some people are defining unions............

I don't know about shop unions, but I DO know that in my trade , if you are lazy and not motivated, you are not working.....When you are on the job you are busy and productive, if not, you are hit in the ass with a check by lunch....your name is everything in our trade, if you are a good worker you will work, if you are a slug you will not, period.
We have our own definition of these lazy idiots..."hall trash".

Once upon a time you could get by being a lazy dirt bag sponging off the union, eating up their benefits, staying laid off all the time, waiting for the easy jobs, I can tell you that this just isn't possible anymore, times have changed....


I'm a union pipefitter and this is how it is everywhere I've ever worked. The companies I've worked for if your an Operator, laborer, pipefitter it doesn't matter if your a slug you dont stay around

Thas what I've experienced as we'll,sounds like some mickey mouse business if other wise. Cant manage your business maybe you shouldnt be n business.