Unions: Tool of the Free-Market, or key to it's destruction?

[DocBoCook]

You are obviously absolutely correct. You don't know.

Don't worry about it though, you are in the right herd for it. Moo, baaaa, just follow the bell.

You are right. There are no Unions on the Battlefield, only brotherhood. We got promoted (I.E. payraises) by merit and performance, oh and Bravery/stupidity on the Battlefield (there is a fine line between the two. Not because we pay a bureaucrat a share of our paycheck to hold a company by the testicles until we get things we didn't earn. Unions were worth it in T.R.'s day when 80+ hour work weeks for $1.50 a week with people dying everyday at work was happening. Those things don't happen anymore. Unions at best help a little, especially in Workplace disputes, at worst are Corrupt Socialists that would love to have a model like Welfare to hold companies hostage with. Unions did a lot for workers in the past. But now-a-days, what do they do, beside support socialists for office?
Educate me, but remember my first line on this reply, I have earned the right to have my opinion on this. If I had a job right now, and it had a labor union that DID NOT REQUIRE MY MONEY to help it's brothers in labor, I would do that definetly, as long as they were reasonable. Nobody gets my money for something that each of us should be doing for free, for our fellow workers, and for ourselves anyway. I like the D.A.V. model. They help for free because you put in the work, not because you pay them.

 

[Jack Ryan]

You are right. There are no Unions on the Battlefield, only brotherhood. We got promoted (I.E. payraises) by merit and performance, oh and Bravery/stupidity on the Battlefield (there is a fine line between the two. Not because we pay a bureaucrat a share of our paycheck to hold a company by the testicles until we get things we didn't earn. Unions were worth it in T.R.'s day when 80+ hour work weeks for $1.50 a week with people dying everyday at work was happening. Those things don't happen anymore. Unions at best help a little, especially in Workplace disputes, at worst are Corrupt Socialists that would love to have a model like Welfare to hold companies hostage with. Unions did a lot for workers in the past. But now-a-days, what do they do, beside support socialists for office?
Educate me, but remember my first line on this reply, I have earned the right to have my opinion on this. If I had a job right now, and it had a labor union that DID NOT REQUIRE MY MONEY to help it's brothers in labor, I would do that definetly, as long as they were reasonable. Nobody gets my money for something that each of us should be doing for free, for our fellow workers, and for ourselves anyway. I like the D.A.V. model. They help for free because you put in the work, not because you pay them.

American union membership in the private sector has in recent years fallen under 9% — levels not seen since 1932.

Unions don't have any one by the balls any more. They can barely hang on to their own short hairs.

Business and management failures are their own fault. Crying around here blaming any union for their own inadequacy in life is little more than a 2 year old crying about the boogy man. Thinking you don't need a union because you've go OSHA is a fool's arguement. Why do you think you've got OSHA? Don't frett over it, you'll get to learn all about it as the pendulem swings and the worm turns just like it always does.

 

[LEaSH]

Lawyers looove unions. It's really no coincidence. Does anyone believe these modern day unions care about what happens to the workers that support them?

Does anyone know about Navistar? Strike in the busy part of production - then mass layoffs when the company's health dictates it. It really seems like poisoning yourself.

Please, people, think of the lawyers.

 

[Jack Ryan]

We don't need no stinking unions. We's got us some OSHA and besides I'm young and whizzing gasoline and vinegar. I'm ruff, tuff and the company LOOOOVES me, they treat me goooood.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/blac-j11.shtml

Black lung on the rise among US coal miners

Since 1997, both the rate and number of US coal miners with black lung disease have been rising, reversing decades of decline. In addition, the severity of the disease and the rapidity of its progression are increasing, and it is occurring more frequently among younger miners.
In recent years, the number of black lung cases has doubled. Its rise among younger workers is especially troubling, since they have spent their entire careers supposedly protected by safety standards developed in the 1970s to prevent the disease.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2010/jan2010/blac-j11.shtml

Yep kids and hot dogs. Suck it right up. You'll get your day.

 

[steveh_131]

You have never had your workplace "hide" or have something overlooked with an OSHA inspection?

You are not understanding anything....the UAW was created a LONG time ago and gained ground in the auto industry when jobs were deadly and employers abused people just as the USW tried to stop the slave labor in the steel mills. As time went on things evolved in the workplace and rules were put into place to protect workers and employers. I know from my own experience I seen a woman be forced to stand on one foot to do her job with a busted ankle she hurt at work. They gave her the choice of work standing on one foot or let her go. What could she really do in this state without some kind of protection? A relative ground part of her finger off at a foundry and had tendon damage and later a skin graft to fix the area. When she returned to work the next day from the injury she was put on the same job and told to grind one handed....that place WAS A UNION SHOP!!! The union and company response was that if they give you a job order you have to do it or you can be fired. Obviously, a lot of people such as the OP do not like unions but the facts about them have been stretched to make them seem evil.

WHAT!? This company required its employees to do their job or be FIRED!?

I don't believe it. Surely this could not happen in a civilized nation.

 

[irishfan]

We don't need no stinking unions. We's got us some OSHA and besides I'm young and whizzing gasoline and vinegar. I'm ruff, tuff and the company LOOOOVES me, they treat me goooood.



Yep kids and hot dogs. Suck it right up. You'll get your day.

You are making to much sense for this thread. Everybody wants to knock the unions but the truth is they are nothing like they once were or nearly as powerful. Many companies do not need a union as they treat their employees fairly but there are still many who are horribly underpaid and in unsafe enviornments and they need some kind of help. Also, if a union employee threatens a supervisor they should and CAN be fired just like anyone else. If a union member threatens a strike buster/scab then that is a one on one situation and can be handled by the law and is the person threatening them and not the union but that is a good try to demonize them.

 

[steveh_131]

We don't need no stinking unions. We's got us some OSHA and besides I'm young and whizzing gasoline and vinegar. I'm ruff, tuff and the company LOOOOVES me, they treat me goooood.



Yep kids and hot dogs. Suck it right up. You'll get your day.

BREAKING NEWS: Certain jobs are associated with certain dangers!

Maybe one should consider these when making career choices?

 

[DocBoCook]

Unions don't have any one by the balls any more. They can barely hang on to their own short hairs.

Business and management failures are their own fault. Crying around here blaming any union for their own inadequacy in life is little more than a 2 year old crying about the boogy man. Thinking you don't need a union because you've go OSHA is a fool's arguement. Why do you think you've got OSHA? Don't frett over it, you'll get to learn all about it as the pendulem swings and the worm turns just like it always does.

well, we see you don't want to address the socialism of it all. No surprise

 

[Eddie]

I think that there are two competing, fictional visions of unions. In one vision, we see a group of skilled workers banding together to demand living wages and safe working conditions. In the other we see a corrupt organization of bureaucrats skimming money from the labor of people who get paid more than they are worth. I think that which vision you see depends a lot on where you are standing. Are you a business owner whose trucks got vandalized during contract negotiations? Are you a union worker with a good retirement plan and insurance? Are you a replacement worker who just got a death threat?

The trouble is its not nearly so black and white. The people negotiating aren't always the people doing the work. Upper level management and Union Leaders might both never have seen the factory floor. Corruption inside a Union might stem from the management of its pension fund while the actual people doing the work are honest and dedicated. A large union might make the decision tactically to starve a small factory into bankruptcy not becasue that is what is best for its workers there, but because they have a bigger negotiation coming up at a larger factory and they want to "send a message". I think that there are some good unions and some really bad unions out there and that they need to be judged on a case by case basis by looking at what they actually are doing as opposed to some romanticized vision.

The general concept of a group of workers banding together to negotiate the terms of their employment as a group can have its place in a free market, just like an employer deciding to pass on the union workers and hire non-union workers for a lower wage can have its place in a free market. Once a worker gets assualted based on their choice to join or not to join a union a line has been crossed and it is no longer a "free" market.

I think that my answer to the OP would be "It depends on how they are used."

 

[irishfan]

WHAT!? This company required its employees to do their job or be FIRED!?

I don't believe it. Surely this could not happen in a civilized nation.

You are saying it is right to tell a person to do a job standing on one foot for 8 hours? Also, you are saying that it is okay for a person to be forced to do a 2 hand required job with one hand and the other bandaged?

Seriously....you would be okay if that was done to you?

As far as the other "socialism" question I think you have no understanding what they are for. I do not agree with a large union negotiating for several factories as that is dumb and pretty much wiped out anymore as most plants negotiate individually.

 

[DocBoCook]

We don't need no stinking unions. We's got us some OSHA and besides I'm young and whizzing gasoline and vinegar. I'm ruff, tuff and the company LOOOOVES me, they treat me goooood.



Yep kids and hot dogs. Suck it right up. You'll get your day.

Can't get your off site quote up, but Membership might be up, if it was not pay membership, and they helped people because it's the right thing to do, not cuz there is a buck to be made.

 

[rambone]

Black lung on the rise among US coal miners

Since 1997, both the rate and number of US coal miners with black lung disease have been rising, reversing decades of decline. In addition, the severity of the disease and the rapidity of its progression are increasing, and it is occurring more frequently among younger miners.
In recent years, the number of black lung cases has doubled. Its rise among younger workers is especially troubling, since they have spent their entire careers supposedly protected by safety standards developed in the 1970s to prevent the disease.

So... did the unions buy them all respirators, or did they pass out the catalogs that had respirators in them? I don't see how being non-union caused Black Lung Disease.

I'm sure there are more than a few mining companies that have been crippled and collapsed under the UMW, just like the USW and UAW has done to their industries.

 

[steveh_131]

You are saying it is right to tell a person to do a job standing on one foot for 8 hours? Also, you are saying that it is okay for a person to be forced to do a 2 hand required job with one hand and the other bandaged?

Seriously....you would be okay if that was done to you?

I don't think that a person automatically deserves to be paid for a job that they are unable to do.

I think that if the company was responsible for the injury, then the civil courts should be utilized to provide proper compensation.

 

[irishfan]

I don't think that a person automatically deserves to be paid for a job that they are unable to do.

I think that if the company was responsible for the injury, then the civil courts should be utilized to provide proper compensation.

Well then you obviously do not know how injury laws work. If you are hurt on the job and can't work then you can get workmans compensation BUT the doctor who decides you can't work is the doctor paid by the EMPLOYER. IF the doctor says you are able to go back then you have no ground to stand on. If you say you can't do it or won't do it then they can fire you immediately. Indiana has very little protection of workers from harassment or unjustified termination by employers. In both cases I have given there was no option except to do a job one handed or on one foot or leave. Do you really support that? It sounds like it and I hope you are never hurt and needing a job.

 

[steveh_131]

Well then you obviously do not know how injury laws work. If you are hurt on the job and can't work then you can get workmans compensation BUT the doctor who decides you can't work is the doctor paid by the EMPLOYER. IF the doctor says you are able to go back then you have no ground to stand on. If you say you can't do it or won't do it then they can fire you immediately. Indiana has very little protection of workers from harassment or unjustified termination by employers. In both cases I have given there was no option except to do a job one handed or on one foot or leave. Do you really support that? It sounds like it and I hope you are never hurt and needing a job.

If actual evidence was provided showing that the system was corrupt, I would advocate fixing the corruption.

I don't think a company owes you a job even though you hurt yourself and can't perform that job.

Also, I don't have a problem with unions in theory. If the free market provides workers with an advantage if they unionize, then so be it.

I have a problem with government protection and sponsorship of unions, which is what this whole circus has turned into. Government sponsored organized crime.

 

[Eddie]

Well then you obviously do not know how injury laws work. If you are hurt on the job and can't work then you can get workmans compensation BUT the doctor who decides you can't work is the doctor paid by the EMPLOYER. IF the doctor says you are able to go back then you have no ground to stand on. If you say you can't do it or won't do it then they can fire you immediately. Indiana has very little protection of workers from harassment or unjustified termination by employers. In both cases I have given there was no option except to do a job one handed or on one foot or leave. Do you really support that? It sounds like it and I hope you are never hurt and needing a job.

Actually you can fill out an adjustment of claim form and ask for a review. There are quite a few law firms that do nothing but workcomp/injured at work cases and seem to do all right with them.

 

[irishfan]

Actually you can fill out an adjustment of claim form and ask for a review. There are quite a few law firms that do nothing but workcomp/injured at work cases and seem to do all right with them.

Really? My place has a doctor you can go to for a second opinion but he also is a payed company doctor. If you refuse to work as you are told you can and in many cases fired immediately. So you are saying that you should get fired and then try and file lawsuit? Also, what if you file the lawsuit and lose? You are out of work still.

 

[DocBoCook]

maybe your union rep should negotiate to have an Independent Physician to the second opinion. That would be a more than logical solution. The last place I worked for that had a "You must go to our Dr." mandate, had a stipulation that a second opinion can be obtained at a physician of your choosing. And I wasn't working at a Union Place

 

[Eddie]

Really? My place has a doctor you can go to for a second opinion but he also is a payed company doctor. If you refuse to work as you are told you can and in many cases fired immediately. So you are saying that you should get fired and then try and file lawsuit? Also, what if you file the lawsuit and lose? You are out of work still.

Its not a lawsuit, they are just asking the workcomp board to review their claim and adjust it. If they get fired they file for unemployment. If they are fired in retaliation for filing a workcomp claim then its a lawsuit.

 

[rambone]

If the only thing Unions did was strive for workplace safety and supporting employment of crippled workers, our economy would be very different.

I've never heard anybody saying, "yeah, the plant may shut down because the union is demanding independent physicians."

Its always about getting pay raises, whether business is up or down.