U.S. Soldiers now raiding U.S. gun shops

[UncleMike]

Why doesn't one person tell me one good reason why it is necessary for any members of the military to participate in a civilian raid?

"It's the Air Force's stuff!" is not a good enough reason to head down a potentially slippery slope. Law enforcement routinely recovers stolen property. It has never been necessary for the owners to be present during the raid.

Maybe that's not what happened in this instance. Nobody seems to know yet. But in general, why would it ever be a good idea?

OK...
IF the stolen items were Air force Property, the Air Force Investigators were the ONLY ones, allowed by law, to take possession of the recovered items.
Civilian Police Authorities may NOT take control of Military hardware/goods recovered during the course of an investigation if authorized Military Personnel are present.
The crime occurred against the Military and they have EXCLUSIVE control of all recovered items.
Been there!

 

[steveh_131]

OK...
IF the stolen items were Air force Property, the Air Force Investigators were the ONLY ones, allowed by law, to take possession of the recovered items.
Civilian Police Authorities may NOT take control of Military hardware/goods recovered during the course of an investigation if authorized Military Personnel are present.
The crime occurred against the Military and they have EXCLUSIVE control of all recovered items.
Been there!

First of all, I'm not really talking about what the law currently says. I'm asking why this SHOULD work this way. Real, practical reasons.

Secondly, is there any reason why local enforcement couldn't handle the raid, secure the area, find the items, and then let the air force come grab their stuff? Then there is no interaction between civilians and the military.

 

[Cwood]

Why doesn't one person tell me one good reason why it is necessary for any members of the military to participate in a civilian raid?

"It's the Air Force's stuff!" is not a good enough reason to head down a potentially slippery slope. Law enforcement routinely recovers stolen property. It has never been necessary for the owners to be present during the raid.

Maybe that's not what happened in this instance. Nobody seems to know yet. But in general, why would it ever be a good idea?

Ummmm maybe that's because that is the power that Congress gave them?????

 

[steveh_131]

Ummmm maybe that's because that is the power that Congress gave them?????

Oh damn, you're right. I forgot that everything Congress does is a good idea. Thank you for straightening me out.

 

[UncleMike]

First of all, I'm not really talking about what the law currently says. I'm asking why this SHOULD work this way. Real, practical reasons.

Secondly, is there any reason why local enforcement couldn't handle the raid, secure the area, find the items, and then let the air force come grab their stuff? Then there is no interaction between civilians and the military.

Well......
What the law currently says is exactly what everyone is stuck with.
What the law should be is relegated to the Land of Fluff and Fairies.
Sorry to break reality to ya like that.
BTW
It's almost 100% certain that the Air Force Investigators tracked down the goods themselves.
They invited the local Police along for the raid to avoid hard feelings.
Like I said....
BEEN THERE!!!

 

[RobbLG]

Why doesn't one person tell me one good reason why it is necessary for any members of the military to participate in a civilian raid?

"It's the Air Force's stuff!" is not a good enough reason to head down a potentially slippery slope. Law enforcement routinely recovers stolen property. It has never been necessary for the owners to be present during the raid.

Maybe that's not what happened in this instance. Nobody seems to know yet. But in general, why would it ever be a good idea?

You do realize that almost every federal government agency has it's own Law Enforcement arm that is comprised of Federal Law Enforcement Agents? The DOD and the military branches aren't the only ones... Just because they are employed by the Air Force doesn't make them "members of the military"... They are Federal LEO's employed to protect the interests of the United States, in this case, The USAF... The Department of Energy has it's own LEO's and even the Department of Education and just about every other Department, so, why would the Department of Defense be any different... The Department of Justice doesn't have the market completely cornered on Federal Law Enforcement... Although I generally hate linking to wikipedia, this was the best list I could find...

Federal law enforcement in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[rambone]

You do realize that almost every federal government agency has it's own Law Enforcement arm that is comprised of Federal Law Enforcement Agents? The DOD and the military branches aren't the only ones... Just because they are employed by the Air Force doesn't make them "members of the military"... They are Federal LEO's employed to protect the interests of the United States, in this case, The USAF... The Department of Energy has it's own LEO's and even the Department of Education and just about every other Department, so, why would the Department of Defense be any different... The Department of Justice doesn't have the market completely cornered on Federal Law Enforcement... Although I generally hate linking to wikipedia, this was the best list I could find...

Federal law enforcement in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Fedzilla has a thousand different tentacles.

And look at how desperately people cling to them.

 

[Expat]

Why doesn't one person tell me one good reason why it is necessary for any members of the military to participate in a civilian raid?

"It's the Air Force's stuff!" is not a good enough reason to head down a potentially slippery slope. Law enforcement routinely recovers stolen property. It has never been necessary for the owners to be present during the raid.

Maybe that's not what happened in this instance. Nobody seems to know yet. But in general, why would it ever be a good idea?

I believe someone posted this agency has been in existence since the 40's. Apparently the slope hasn't been all that slippery.

Securing items that need some expertise in doing so. Even being able to recognize it may be difficult without some expertise. What if it was a theft of a bio weapon?

 

[steveh_131]

I believe someone posted this agency has been in existence since the 40's. Apparently the slope hasn't been all that slippery.

I'm not talking about the agency's existence. I'm talking about it being given jurisdiction over civilians.

Securing items that need some expertise in doing so. Even being able to recognize it may be difficult without some expertise. What if it was a theft of a bio weapon?

Now this is the one exception I can maybe agree with. And it happens to be the only one allowed for in the Posse Comitatus act.

 

[steveh_131]

It is fascinating how everyone is using the current size and absurdity of the federal government to justify more size and more absurdity.

Sorry for living in fairy unicorn land where I would like to see it actually shrink. Apparently this sort of talk has no place here.

 

[Cwood]

I'm not talking about the agency's existence. I'm talking about it being given jurisdiction over civilians.
.

That is the reason they are FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS...... sorry had to use caps because apparently you have been missing this point through out the whole discussion.

 

[IndyBeerman]

Rambone does like to sensationalize a bit.

A bit, a bit, a bit, a bit, a bit, a bit???
Rambone does nothing a by little bit, sometimes I think in his previous life he was either a headline writer for a major newspaper, or head writer for a local news channel. His over sensationalism is as bad as all 4 local TV stations when they go full blown over hype on a bad weather day.

Those of you jumping on the martial law/posse comitatus bandwagon might be confusing sworn military with sworn civilian federal agents.
SNIP

Forget it, the blind shall never see the real light shining them in the face, they can't fathom that they are civilians sworn to uphold the the law and investigate actions that affected that branch of service.

 

[steveh_131]

That is the reason they are FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS...... sorry had to use caps because apparently you have been missing this point through out the whole discussion.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE OTHER BAZILLION FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS? THEY CAN'T HANDLE A GUN STORE?

 

[Cwood]

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THE OTHER BAZILLION FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS? THEY CAN'T HANDLE A GUN STORE?

This has been covered, yet you choose not to accept it.

 

[rambone]

A bit, a bit, a bit, a bit, a bit, a bit???
Rambone does nothing a by little bit, sometimes I think in his previous life he was either a headline writer for a major newspaper, or head writer for a local news channel. His over sensationalism is as bad as all 4 local TV stations when they go full blown over hype on a bad weather day.

I'm a sensational guy, what can I say?

You guys would love hanging out with me. I'm great at parties.

"Sorry I'm late guys. I got held up in some martial law."

 

[Bunnykid68]

I'm a sensational guy, what can I say?

You guys would love hanging out with me. I'm great at parties.

"Sorry I'm late guys. I got held up in some martial law."

Hate it when that happens. Beer starts to get warm.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

.....
Airmen = Navy
Firemen = Navy
Seamen = Navy
Pilot = Navy although the other branches try...
Marine = Men's Department of the Navy....
......
....
Man, the Navy has it ALL locked down!

FTFY

Actually, the Military has historically been in the Business of Repossessing and Building the Case against those who Steal or Deal in Stolen Military Wares...

And HTF do you know what the Infantry looks like in Afghanistan?!

He saw it on CoD

If you really hate the establishment so much why do you not do something to change it?!
Are there to many steps to get out of your Basement, ur I mean your Bunker?!

He should get the Bunker Commander (MoM) to turn the heat up. Brain freeze is imminent.

I think their authority should be limited to members of the air force.

Let the local agencies handle the civilians. Keep things separated.

I would abolish most of the alphabet agencies we are discussing.

Report theft to the local police like the rest of us are expected to.

Your opinions have been received, processed, and ignored. Thanks for playing and have a great day.

Why doesn't one person tell me one good reason why it is necessary for any members of the military to participate in a civilian raid?

"It's the Air Force's stuff!" is not a good enough reason to head down a potentially slippery slope. Law enforcement routinely recovers stolen property. It has never been necessary for the owners to be present during the raid.

Maybe that's not what happened in this instance. Nobody seems to know yet. But in general, why would it ever be a good idea?

They are Federal Agents. That's why. What exactly is your problem with accepting this? Living in denial must really suck.

 

[in625shooter]

First of all, I'm not really talking about what the law currently says. I'm asking why this SHOULD work this way. Real, practical reasons.

Secondly, is there any reason why local enforcement couldn't handle the raid, secure the area, find the items, and then let the air force come grab their stuff? Then there is no interaction between civilians and the military.

Do some FED agencies have bad leadership no doubt. Let me add something from the FED side. I also spent time in the USAF as a SF and have worked with AFOSI. AFOSI has enlisted, officer and civilian positions. As pointed out the civillians are true Federal LE covered positions.

Let me just point out the local civilian agency LVMP DID handle the raid. CIVILLIAN AFOSI and other FED's were there in a leadership type role since it involved Federal property. This case is no different than the many other Federal agencies Task forces that is multi agency with local, state and other Federal agencies. There are several reasons they pool resources. One is excluding a warrent, FED's have different statutory powers of arrest then say most local agencies. Local PD's have more options on arresting.

FED's can't generally make a DUI arrest for example where their civillian counterparts can.


What I'm getting at is with the exceptions of the Border Patrol etc most Federal LE with few exceptions can't just make and arrest or raid somewhere without an investigation and or warrents involved. And they are obtained through the USA's office. Those exceptions on arresting without a warrent would be like assaulting an officer, a violent crime in progress etc.

If that guy didn't steal, recieve, know someone involved they would never have gotten the warrant by a Federal Judge. The majority of Federal agents are not boogie men and don't just act on their own and if they do thats what OIG investigations are for.

 

[Destro]

So the people who tagged along on this raid were civilians? Not members of the air force or under the control of the air force?

If so, then I was misunderstanding the issue.

im glad you were able to admit it

 

[rambone]

The majority of Federal agents are not boogie men

... but there are some...