Two bodies found in Carroll County

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  • HoughMade

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    Well he's currently being held in the next county over, last report is he's in a cell about 5 minutes from me. Wasn't his house five minutes from the bridge or so?
    Where he is being held is interesting, and makes sense, but is irrelevant as to venue issues.

    The defendant has a right to be tried in the county where the offense is alleged to have occurred and, in fact, unless waived, the prosecutor must prove (by a preponderance of the evidence) that the crime occurred in the county where he is tried. However, the defendant can waive that right by filing a motion for change of venue...which, I think is inevitable.
     

    DoggyDaddy

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    Where he is being held is interesting, and makes sense, but is irrelevant as to venue issues.

    The defendant has a right to be tried in the county where the offense is alleged to have occurred and, in fact, unless waived, the prosecutor must prove (by a preponderance of the evidence) that the crime occurred in the county where he is tried. However, the defendant can waive that right by filing a motion for change of venue...which, I think is inevitable.
    I've been wondering for some time now how long "change of venue" will continue to be a thing. In these days of 24/7 news cycles and the internet, it seems like most trials would have to be moved to some remote holler in Appalachia to find a place where nobody has heard of a major case.
     

    HoughMade

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    I've been wondering for some time now how long "change of venue" will continue to be a thing. In these days of 24/7 news cycles and the internet, it seems like most trials would have to be moved to some remote holler in Appalachia to find a place where nobody has heard of a major case.
    If we can't somehow get a "fair trial", there will be no trial and the accused goes free. There is no "we'll try him even though everyone on the jury is biased" option. Not one that complies with the Constitution at least.

    What we will get is jurors who are less and less engaged in national media. This doesn't necessarily mean dumb. I think this is a burgeoning trend. I have not watched a national news broadcast of any kind in....I can't remember how long, but probably years. I certainly don't pay attention to local crime stories from across the country. If they aren't relatively close to home- not interested.
     
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    DoggyDaddy

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    If we can't somehow get a "fair trial", there will be no trial and the accused goes free. There is no "we'll try him even though everyone on the jury is biased" option. Not one that complies with the Constitution at least.

    What we will get is jurors who are less and less engaged. This doesn't necessarily mean dumb. I have not watched a national news broadcast of any kind in....I can't remember how long, but probably years.
    Oh I'm not suggesting that we "try them anyway", but it's got to be increasingly difficult to find a jury pool that has not at least heard of the more public cases like this one, or cases like the George Floyd debacle. Smaller, less well known cases, sure.
     

    bwframe

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    Lotta folks are really, really, really rooting for this guy to be found guilty, because of the extreme circumstances of the murders. Even right here on INGO, many have this guy "already convicted," prepared to wish him harm.

    How can this guy get a fair trial?

    Guy that supposedly murdered Jill Berman is still claiming that he was railroaded by folks who needed a boogy man and he was the closest thing to it.


    An irony, between the two cases is that the amount of money spent investigating the seemingly unsolvable cases have taken similar paths with extensive waterway searches on top of years long task forces, with no results. Until...
     
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    HoughMade

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    ...but it's got to be increasingly difficult to find a jury pool that has not at least heard of the more public cases...
    This is true, but hearing about the case is not the standard. The defendant must show evidence of actual bias or pervasive, inflammatory material in the press to get a change of venue. It being a horrific crime is not enough. There has to be evidence that the potential jurors would be biased against defendant, himself for some reason. For instance, if there is a lot of reporting about the case that includes evidence that will be inadmissible, but makes the defendant look guilty, that's a problem.
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    Where he is being held is interesting, and makes sense, but is irrelevant as to venue issues.

    The defendant has a right to be tried in the county where the offense is alleged to have occurred and, in fact, unless waived, the prosecutor must prove (by a preponderance of the evidence) that the crime occurred in the county where he is tried. However, the defendant can waive that right by filing a motion for change of venue...which, I think is inevitable.
    Yeah it does make sense, close to the courthouse and I believe White co jail rents beds to the state to house inmates so he's being held in a "state facility". Carrol Co last I heard a couple of years ago was renting beds in other jails for their own prisoners. I'm kinda surprised they didn't pull a Lake Co and move in a couple of trailers except they might be able to put in a single wide, maybe.

    And I agree a motion for a change of venue is pretty much inevitable.

    If we can't somehow get a "fair trial", there will be no trial and the accused goes free. There is no "we'll try him even though everyone on the jury is biased" option. Not one that complies with the Constitution at least.

    What we will get is jurors who are less and less engaged in national media. This doesn't necessarily mean dumb. I think this is a burgeoning trend. I have not watched a national news broadcast of any kind in....I can't remember how long, but probably years. I certainly don't pay attention to local crime stories from across the country. If they aren't relatively close to home- not interested.
    I've caught a few of the high profile ones, but haven't really followed them. With a few exceptions that the repercussions were or could be somewhat local, Chauvin trial being one. The scumbag in Waukesha I caught bits and pieces of the trial but didn't really follow it or what was going on before the trial.

    I can't really understand the people who follow crap like this from anywhere in the country or in some cases the world. I ran into some of them on facebook in discussion forums about Abby and Libby. They could rattle off half a dozen cases with anything similar including some within an hour of here that I never heard of. They got off on it.
    Wow, Richard Allen used to live down in Greenwood. He received his pharmacy tech certification in 2018. (seeing this on WTHR just now)
    That was his latest one, he was already in Delphi working in a drugstore by that time. I think he moved there sometime in the mid 2000s.

    Lotta folks are really, really, really rooting for this guy to be found guilty, because of the extreme circumstances of the murders. Even right here on INGO, many have this guy "already convicted," prepared to wish him harm.

    How can this guy get a fair trial?

    Guy that supposedly murdered Jill Berman is still claiming that he was railroaded by folks who needed a boogy man and he was the closest thing to it.

    It's gonna be tough. I'll admit I'm rooting for him to be the one. But I hope if he's not he goes free, changes his name and gets the hell out of dodge, because otherwise his life is going to be measured in weeks at the most. I believe I could give him a fair trial even knowing what I do about the killings, but in all honesty I'm not sure if I could guarantee it. Hell my wife's co-worker was one of the girls preschool teacher and there are some of one of their relatives living just a couple of blocks away from me I believe.
    This is true, but hearing about the case is not the standard. The defendant must show evidence of actual bias or pervasive, inflammatory material in the press to get a change of venue. It being a horrific crime is not enough. There has to be evidence that the potential jurors would be biased against defendant, himself for some reason. For instance, if there is a lot of reporting about the case that includes evidence that will be inadmissible, but makes the defendant look guilty, that's a problem.
    With the scarcity of info that has been giving out officially that shouldn't be a problem to overcome. Even unofficially there hasn't been much if any that would implicate this guy up until just now with the search and the arrest being the only thing.

    Main thing I see with him not getting a fair trial anywhere near Carrol Co is there are so many people wanting anyone to be the one to get "justice", there were a few that people suspected that I'm almost surprised they didn't turn up missing or dead. At least one who to the best of my knowledge was never questioned or implicated officially in any way. People just thought he was creepy and if you closed one eye, squinted the other, and held your mouth just right almost kinda resembled one of the sketches.
     
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    Timjoebillybob

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    I will say if it is him, or they do find the scum I get the feeling there are going to be some solved previously unsolved cases when they get their DNA and/or prints. To the best of my knowledge the worst thing this guy has been busted for is traffic tickets.
     

    Hawkeye

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    I will say if it is him, or they do find the scum I get the feeling there are going to be some solved previously unsolved cases when they get their DNA and/or prints. To the best of my knowledge the worst thing this guy has been busted for is traffic tickets.
    Im kind of confused about what you are saying. Are you saying he's a serial killer now? If so, why? I'd agree it's certainly possible but Ive not heard this being treated as part of a serial killer investigation.
     

    HoughMade

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    Lotta folks are really, really, really rooting for this guy to be found guilty, because of the extreme circumstances of the murders. Even right here on INGO, many have this guy "already convicted," prepared to wish him harm.

    How can this guy get a fair trial?
    You would be surprised.

    It wasn't a criminal case, but I have had 2 civil cases that were pervasively covered by the NWI and Chicago media. Both made the crossover to national media, Dateline covered one of the cases and did a follow up along with several other cable shows. The other case went as far as the New York Times.

    In both cases, of those called for jury duty, those who had heard of the cases amounted to around 20-30% and most of them were "I think I heard something" and had not followed it.

    I understand that this case is going to have much higher recognition, but you only need about 14 people out of tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands in a county. Again, the standard is not having heard of the case. It's having formed opinions that the evidence will not change.
     

    wcd

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    I will say if it is him, or they do find the scum I get the feeling there are going to be some solved previously unsolved cases when they get their DNA and/or prints. To the best of my knowledge the worst thing this guy has been busted for is traffic tickets.
    Curious are there any similar cases that have gone unsolved in the area?
     

    Timjoebillybob

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    Im kind of confused about what you are saying. Are you saying he's a serial killer now? If so, why? I'd agree it's certainly possible but Ive not heard this being treated as part of a serial killer investigation.
    Yeah that is what I'm thinking. A few reasons, the boldness to kidnap two young girls during the day on a used trail iirc there were at least 3 people in the area around the time it happened and kill them close to where they were taken, the taking of trophies, staging the bodies, if it is this guy the ability to function in the same small town where it happened. Along with a few other things not including just a gut feeling. They haven't said they are treating it as such exactly, but they did say they weren't ruling it out. And I'm pretty sure they stated that there was no need for concern because they thought the guy had moved on. But not positive and it could have been just to avoid vigilantism like I mentioned if I am remembering correctly.

    Curious are there any similar cases that have gone unsolved in the area?
    Not really similar, a few missing girls around that age that never turned up not right near but within a half hr-hr drive max. There is at least one other case a state or two away that has never been solved that is very similar. Two girls, daylight, semi secluded location but with some traffic.
     

    HoughMade

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    Has that ever actually happened?
    I don't know of a case where the charges have been dismissed pre-trial (pre-jeopardy) because of the inability to get an impartial jury.

    But, the way this happens is that they go ahead a try a defendant despite his protests that the jury venire is biased. They convict him, then an appellate court sides with the defendant and he gets set free. There's a few steps involved, but yes. People go free because of this. Heck, I'm sure that bias has been uncovered during a trial after jeopardy has attached, but before a verdict. You get a mistrial then, but that gets sticky.
     

    Creedmoor

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    Oh I'm not suggesting that we "try them anyway", but it's got to be increasingly difficult to find a jury pool that has not at least heard of the more public cases like this one, or cases like the George Floyd debacle. Smaller, less well known cases, sure.
    The older I get the less and less news I watch and read.
     
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