Tucson, We Have a Problem

[Keyser Soze]

A real Oathkeeper wouldn't give a crap if the progressive courts gave the cops a pat on the back. He would see the tyranny at play, and realize that some things that are "legal" are also reprehensible. The War on Drugs is totally against the spirit of the constitution and an Oathkeeper would acknowledge that.

I agree some things that are legal are reprehensible. I do not find this case to be one of them. Just because this person is a former Marine it does not mean he can do no wrong. Drugs were mentioned, along with the possibility the suspect was part of a home invasion crew. I take both into consideration, while everyone else writes the home invasion reason off as propaganda. I am anxiously awaiting further developments. All further developments in this story have only supported the assumptions I made when the original story was released. Any new evidence that favors law enforcement in this case will be a result of "circling the wagons". Anything negative will be considered facts.


The constitution has been changed 27 times.

 

[Keyser Soze]

You want to tell me how you know these to be fact? You going by the word of the sherrifs dept.?

As opposed to what else? Were you there? Do you have some type of information no one else does? While you just assume anything the sheriffs department releases is false, I assume its true. There is nothing else that leads me to believe otherwise.

Mike Stories describes what SWAT team members say happened next. "Guerena makes eye contact with these officers who are in gear that says police, the shield says police, their helmets say police, they have patches that say police," says Stories. "He makes eye contact with them raises his weapon and points it right at these officers."

 

[Bunnykid68]

WHY DIDN'T THEY STOP HIM GOING TO OR FROM WORK AND SERVE THE WARRANT ON THE HOME WHILE NO ONE WAS THERE.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

As opposed to what else? Were you there? Do you have some type of information no one else does? While you just assume anything the sheriffs department releases is false, I assume its true. There is nothing else that leads me to believe otherwise.

Mike Stories describes what SWAT team members say happened next. "Guerena makes eye contact with these officers who are in gear that says police, the shield says police, their helmets say police, they have patches that say police," says Stories. "He makes eye contact with them raises his weapon and points it right at these officers."

You believe the half story and half lie that the public has been fed. No one is there speaking for the dead father and Marine. No one is there to represent the other side of the story. That side died somewhere between 71 rounds fired in 8 seconds and over an hour later when paramedics were allowed to enter the house, after all movement by the [STRIKE]suspect[/STRIKE] dead Marine (he was at no time a suspect, as detailed below) ceased.

So let's see what's happend so far:

1. They didn't have his name on the warrant.
2. The police had no idea who lived at the residence.
3. The police lied when they said they were fired on first.
4. The police lied when they said he had a police uniform when it was really just a hat that said "Border Control", which as far as I know and using my Google-fu I was unable to find any police organization anywhere in the world known as "Border Control".
5. The police made a big deal about a picture of some guy who is supposed to be the patron saint of drug dealers, while not sharing with the non-hispanic members of the class that he is also the patron saint of the poor and abused.
6. The police lied when they said they were searching for a home invasion crew and had to admit that the warrant was not for evidence of any home invasions and had to walk it back.
7. The evidence provided in the raid tape (BTW only the first minute, not the other over 60 minutes while they allowed this man to die rendering no medical assistance whatsoever) showed a bungling gaggle of clowns worthy of the center ring, not of a crack group of CQB operators executing warrant service for a dangerous criminal accused of murder, home invasion and drug dealing.
8. The sheriff has chastised the media for trying to do their job by holding him accountable for not doing his.
9. The sheriff refuses to release any information which could be used to independently corroberate the official story.
10. The FOP dirtbag attorney slanders a dead man who has no opportunity whatsoever to defend himself and clear his name.
11. The whole alleged "I've got something for you" statement made by the dead Marine was first introduced by the FOP attorney several days after the shooting, and after several of the officers said they heard nothing. How did they all of the sudden remember it? Group hypnosis?
12. The FOP attorney said the police found everything they were expecting to find, yet no evidence was removed from the residence and the prosecutor has said no one would have been arrested had there been no shooting.

And there are many questions in my mind, questions that will never be answered in some perverse decision to afford "officer safety".

1. While the shooting may have been justified based upon facts on the ground, what were the circumstances that put the police there to begin with?
2. Where is the rest of the helmet cam tape? Why wasn't that released?
3. What is in the search warrant? Why was it sealed?
4. Who was the judge that signed the warrant and where is the probable cause affidavit?
5. Why is the sheriff a b***h who shuts down his own PR machine in favor of using the FOP's propaganda machine.

What it comes down to is there are many bright individuals who see the gaps between words and deeds in this circumstance. You obviously are not among them.

 

[Keyser Soze]

And there are many questions in my mind, questions that will never be answered in some perverse decision to afford "officer safety".

1. While the shooting may have been justified based upon facts on the ground, what were the circumstances that put the police there to begin with?
2. Where is the rest of the helmet cam tape? Why wasn't that released?
3. What is in the search warrant? Why was it sealed?
4. Who was the judge that signed the warrant and where is the probable cause affidavit?
5. Why is the sheriff a b***h who shuts down his own PR machine in favor of using the FOP's propaganda machine.

What it comes down to is there are many bright individuals who see the gaps between words and deeds in this circumstance. You obviously are not among them.

Lets stop pretending this would not be so controversial if this guy was not an Oath keeper. Ive seen police shootings that are far less cut and dry create much less if any attention. Your speculating on your "facts" just as I am speculating on mine.

Your talking about the circumstance that created the warrant. We are getting two different versions. I cannot discredit your version no more than you can discredit mine. I never mentioned the drug war, probable cause for the warrant, ect. Apparently those circumstances are unknown. It seems you agree with me that the shooting was justified. What else is their to discuss?


You think they can only afford one helmet cam? I gaurentee every swat officer was cammed. They will never release any other video footage. To graphic. They released enough to back their story without getting to up close and personal.

 

[Keyser Soze]

WHY DIDN'T THEY STOP HIM GOING TO OR FROM WORK AND SERVE THE WARRANT ON THE HOME WHILE NO ONE WAS THERE.

Poor tactics? They would have needed to invest a lot of time to avoid face to face interaction. Ive said time and time again proper planning and and trained observer can drastically reduce the risk of arrest warrants/search warrants.


To my understanding we were talking about the justification of the shooting itself. Not the tactics used when executing the warrant. Looks like the subject was changed to something else once more details were released that make the shooting clearly justifiable.

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Lets stop pretending this would not be so controversial if this guy was not an Oath keeper. Ive seen police shootings that are far less cut and dry create much less if any attention. Your speculating on your "facts" just as I am speculating on mine.

Your talking about the circumstance that created the warrant. We are getting two different versions. I cannot discredit your version no more than you can discredit mine. I never mentioned the drug war, probable cause for the warrant, ect. Apparently those circumstances are unknown. It seems you agree with me that the shooting was justified. What else is their to discuss?


You think they can only afford one helmet cam? I gaurentee every swat officer was cammed. They will never release any other video footage. To graphic. They released enough to back their story without getting to up close and personal.

I'm not speculating on facts. I'[m quoting the police from news accounts. You are the one making up facts to provide the idiot's argument.

I had no idea nor do I care that he was an Oathkeeper. He was alive. Now he is dead. That is all I care about.

The primary point you either conveniently chose to ignore or incompetently fail to see is that the burden of proof is on the GOVERNMENT, not the individual, to prove probable cause to perform a search. It is up to the GOVERNMENT to execute the warrant. Therefore if there are two stories it is up to the GOVERNMENT to address the inconsistencies, not the dead Marine or his family.

No, I do not concede the shooting was justified. I said it may have been warrented based upon the fact that the police were there and according to their everchanging account they were painted. But if they should not have been there to begin with was the shooting justified? Not by a long shot.

I think they had plenty of helmet cams. Why won't they release the footage? They can release the part that they believe has maximum propaganda benefit, yet not that which doesn't? You said it. They released enough to back up their version of the story. We call that editing.

 

[serpicostraight]

Poor tactics? They would have needed to invest a lot of time to avoid face to face interaction. Ive said time and time again proper planning and and trained observer can drastically reduce the risk of arrest warrants/search warrants.


To my understanding we were talking about the justification of the shooting itself. Not the tactics used when executing the warrant. Looks like the subject was changed to something else once more details were released that make the shooting clearly justifiable.

shooting was justified? i know your confused and meant to say murder unjustified.

 

[Benny]

Poor tactics? They would have needed to invest a lot of time to avoid face to face interaction.

Yeah, they wouldn't want to waste any time when all they have to do is kick in the door and kill him.

I'm glad you aren't in a position of authority...Who knows how many innocent lives would be lost.

 

[Keyser Soze]

shooting was justified? i know your confused and meant to say murder unjustified.

Murder? Justified? Pointing a AR-15 at a officers in full uniform clearly labeled police...Suicide?

 

[Keyser Soze]

Yeah, they wouldn't want to waste any time when all they have to do is kick in the door and kill him.

I'm glad you aren't in a position of authority...Who knows how many innocent lives would be lost.

Good thing your on the internet....

 

[SemperFiUSMC]

Good thing your on the internet....

Was that a threat? Damn sure sounds like one to me.

IBTL just in case.

 

[Keyser Soze]

Was that a threat? Damn sure sounds like one to me.

IBTL just in case.

How could that be a threat? ibtl?

 

[USMC_0311]

Murder? Justified? Pointing a AR-15 at a officers in full uniform clearly labeled police...Suicide?

Lets see the helmet cam of him pointing an AR15

 

[Benny]

Good thing your on the internet....

And it's a good thing you pose as an LEO on the internet(for entertainment purposes, that is).

 

[Keyser Soze]

Lets see the helmet cam of him pointing an AR15

We will never see it. Its also going to show him being shot 22 times. Releasing it is a lose lose.

 

[NYFelon]

screw the helmet cam. We know the man is dead. We know who killed him. Seriously, all they have to do is unseal the warrant. If everything's kosher, as much as I despise what happened, it would at least show that the service of the warrant itself was legitimate. Sealing all documentation and asking us to just accept the official story is rife with sinister undertones. Instead of pursuing a course that is consistent with the best public policy and interaction with the citizens FOR WHOM THE TUCSON PD WORK, they choose rather to engage in a course of secrecy and protectionism. What else can the public assume than that they are hiding their mistakes in a clear-cut case of CYA, move along, nothing to see here?

I've said it before, I'll say it again...this case stinks to high heaven, and it's likely the Guerena family will never see anything resembling justice. Shades of Amadou Diallo.

 

[serpicostraight]

Dailymotion - Green Jelly - Three Little Pigs - a Music video

 

[NYFelon]

Dailymotion - Green Jelly - Three Little Pigs - a Music video

good lord I haven't seen that since High School.

 

[Keyser Soze]

screw the helmet cam. We know the man is dead. We know who killed him. Seriously, all they have to do is unseal the warrant. If everything's kosher, as much as I despise what happened, it would at least show that the service of the warrant itself was legitimate. Sealing all documentation and asking us to just accept the official story is rife with sinister undertones. Instead of pursuing a course that is consistent with the best public policy and interaction with the citizens FOR WHOM THE TUCSON PD WORK, they choose rather to engage in a course of secrecy and protectionism. What else can the public assume than that they are hiding their mistakes in a clear-cut case of CYA, move along, nothing to see here?

I've said it before, I'll say it again...this case stinks to high heaven, and it's likely the Guerena family will never see anything resembling justice. Shades of Amadou Diallo.

I agree. I do think it will be released when the investigation is complete. As it should be.