Trump 2024 — The second term

[DadSmith]

Oxford.

Wrong. Democracy can be that. It has different meanings. One of which is rule of the majority. Another is a system which elects representatives through a democratic process.

Our republic, as opposed to other representative democracies, is unique in that a constitution limits what democratically elected representatives can do. Unlimited democracy is mob rule. We don't have unlimited democracy. But it's still democracy.


Yes we do. Our system is a form of democracy. It's not a pure democracy, thankfully. Our elected representatives don't have full power. They have limited power. That's not what makes us a republic though. Not having a king or dicktater makes us a republic.


A pure democracy is majority rule. But, the highlighted is evidence that we are a democracy at least a little, because in this election especially, we are relying on convincing a majority of people to vote for DJT. That's voting for an outcome to keep our constitutionally limited republic.


Wow. Sounds like a democracy.

Not true. As I said, words have different meanings. And, as I said, there are almost no pure democracies in the world.



Well, no, saying "true" democracy isn't really saying more than progressives say when they say "democracy". What they mean is the utopian "democracy" that will be ushered in once the evil capitalists no longer oppress people with their employment.

What I did say is that there are no pure democracies, except Switzerland is close to it. The good part about democracy is that it's not a dictatorship with absolute rule.

The problem with pure democracy is that it will eventually destroy itself, because people tend to behave badly in large groups. It must be limited to the point it doens't have the power to destroy itself. Representative democracies attempt to do that. It's not enough because those elected representatives are incentivized by groups and mobs.

A better limit on representative democracy on having a contract, a constitution of the people, which limits what government can do. That's what the US founders did. And it's kinda worked out, but not awesomely. We're about to lose it.

An even better limit, on democracy, would be a constitutionally required death penalty for elected officials that intentionally try to subvert the constitution. Public execution. After a fair trial of course.

Well I guess you believe in the propaganda that we are a perceived democracy.
Democracy majority rule thats it.
If it's not that then it's to deceive people in thinking they have one. Just because 99% of people call us a democracy because we vote in representatives doesn't mean we are. Democracies make law via the people. Not elected representatives m
Like you said not one country in the world is a democracy.

So knowing no country in the world is a democracy let's move on. You already admitted even Switzerland isn't one but as close to one as can get. Still doesn't make it a democracy.

 

[KLB]

Got to love INGO semantics arguments.

For your reading pleasure, some articles from everyone's favorite Wikipedia.

List of forms of government - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Types of democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Types of democracy refers to the various governance structures that embody the principles of democracy ("rule by the people") in some way. Democracy is frequently applied to governments (ranging from local to global), but may also be applied to other constructs like workplaces, families, community associations, and so forth.

Types of democracy can cluster around values. Some such types, defined as direct democracy (or participatory democracy, or deliberative democracy), promote equal and direct participation in political decisions by all members of the public. Others, including the many variants of representative democracy, favor more indirect or procedural approaches to collective self-governance, where decisions are made by elected representatives rather than by the people directly.[1]

Types of democracy can be found across time, space, and language.[2] The foregoing examples are just a few of the thousands of refinements of, and variations on, the central notion of "democracy."[3]

 

[DadSmith]

"that embody the principles of democracy"

Aka feels like a democracy but isn't one.

 

[jamil]

Well I guess you believe in the propaganda that we are a perceived democracy.
Democracy majority rule thats it.
If it's not that then it's to deceive people in thinking they have one. Just because 99% of people call us a democracy because we vote in representatives doesn't mean we are. Democracies make law via the people. Not elected representatives m
Like you said not one country in the world is a democracy.

Propaganda? WTF? I know, this is not what the guy on the u tubes said, but the guy on the u tubes is an ideologue who apparently gains something from conning you into thinking that a republic is mutually exclusive to a democracy.

Again, as if saying it again will make any difference at all, Democracy does not exclusively mean majority rule. It means self-rule. In a pure democracy it is majority rule. In limited democracies, like a representative and/or constitutional democracy, the power the people have is limited to prevent destruction of society.

Representative democracies make laws via democratically elected representatives who vote for legislation. That's still a democracy. This isn't propaganda. If you're listening or reading something that tells you that a republic is mutually exclusive from a democracy, even a pure democracy, THAT's propaganda.

So knowing no country in the world is a democracy let's move on. You already admitted even Switzerland isn't one but as close to one as can get. Still doesn't make it a democracy.

Switzerland IS a democracy. It is a confederate representative democracy which has a council that makes laws by consensus, but also the people have the right to vote on policy. Of major nations, it is the closest to direct democracy.

The reason you don't see direct democracies is that they will fall apart. To the extent Switzerland is a direct democracy, and it hasn't fallen apart, is because they're a homogeneous people. If everyone in your nation generally has the same worldview, it doesn't matter. You'll have high adoption of what almost everyone wants anyway.

Similar to what Paul said in Romans 13:10, love does no wrong to a neighbor, therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. The idea behind using this as an example is that people with like-minded views won't create laws that oppress each other, because that law would oppress them too. It hasn't harmed Switzerland. They're happy with their system.

Pure democracy is especially dangerous when that society has a strong diversity of worldviews. All it takes to oppress the other is to have a 50% + 1 majority, not withstanding Overton windows, of course.

And even a representative democracy, hedged by constitutional limitations on power, is vulnerable to a strong diversity of worldviews destroying it. Immigration, for example, legal and illegal, is bringing in a population of people who don't have the same worldview concerning individual liberty, and having a constitution limit the power of government.

 

[jamil]

Got to love INGO semantics arguments.

For your reading pleasure, some articles from everyone's favorite Wikipedia.

List of forms of government - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Types of democracy - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NO! The guy on the u tubes said there's only one type. And that's wolves eating sheep or somethin'.

 

[jamil]

"that embody the principles of democracy"

Aka feels like a democracy but isn't one.

Principles of democracy just mean the power comes from the people. In a representative democracy political power is delegated to representatives, but comes from the people. We have that. But, our constitution limits what the elected can do.

 

[DadSmith]

Switzerland IS a democracy. It is a confederate representative democracy which has a council that makes laws by consensus, but also the people have the right to vote on policy. Of major nations, it is the closest to direct democracy.

Pure democracy is especially dangerous when that society has a strong diversity of worldviews. All it takes to oppress the other is to have a 50% + 1 majority, not withstanding Overton windows, of course.

So the people have absolute rule and control of their government. They vote for every law and no matter good or bad? The government cannot do anything without the peoples consent?

 

[jamil]

So the people have absolute rule and control of their government. They vote for every law and no matter good or bad? The government cannot do anything without the peoples consent?

Did you read it? I said it is about the closest major nation to direct democracy. It has a council which acts by consensus. But, the people also have the right to vote for policy.

BTW, there's a lot of language in founders writing about the consent of the governed. Hate to break it to you, but that describes democracy. And thankfully this democracy is limited by the constitution.

Did you even read the article you posted yourself?

 

[DadSmith]

Did you read it? I said it is about the closest major nation to direct democracy. It has a council which acts by consensus. But, the people also have the right to vote for policy.

BTW, there's a lot of language in founders writing about the consent of the governed. Hate to break it to you, but that describes democracy. And thankfully this democracy is limited by the constitution.

Did you even read the article you posted yourself?

I did I just want you to say yes or no they have a real democracy where everything goes to the people before the government does anything.
That is a true democracy and anything else is not.

I'll also add there are no true communist governments as well.
Some form of it, but not as envisioned by Marx and Engels

 

[Ingomike]

For @HKFaninCarmel

It doesn’t seem to be clear to Democratic campaign consultants, though. They are saying what they always have: “Republicans are just out to help the rich.” It’s not working this year. Why not? Because Donald J. Trump is not George H. W. Bush, and Trump’s party is not Bush’s. Try as they might, Democrats cannot convince voters that Trump is Richie Rich, that he looks down on them, or wants to line his friends’ pockets at their expense. Democrats can’t make those labels stick to today’s Republican Party, either. It has become a populist, working-class party – and voters can see it.

Democrats respond that Trump is a billionaire. He is, of course, but that label hasn’t damaged him for a couple of reasons. The first is his personality. He effectively presents himself as an ordinary guy who connects easily with ordinary people. He knows how to entertain them and demonstrates it every time he walks on stage. Second, he didn’t make his money as a banker, stock trader, or middleman. He did something tangible working people can relate to: he built buildings. They may have been high-income residences and golf clubs, but those are Trump’s consumers, not Trump himself. It is simply impossible to label the former president as a country club Republican who looks down on the peasantry. Voters certainly don’t think see him that way. A lot of them think, “Hey, he’s doing just what I’d do if I had his money. I’d fly in my own plane, put my name on it, and eat as many Big Macs as I want. And I would tip the poor guy or gal who works behind the counter. What a lousy job.”

That brings us to the cherry on top of Trump’s “no tax on tips” idea. He’s telling people to write that message on their bills when they pay them. That’s another ingenious ploy. It directly engages consumers (who are voters, of course) and lets them demonstrate their support for both service workers and Trump. Who doesn’t want to put in a kind word for the people serving them? Trump has not only made that easy to do, he’s made it clear that doing so puts the consumer on his side. They don’t have to wear a MAGA hat to do it.

It’s a small ball in a bigger game. But it will matter if the election is close. And it demonstrates, once again, why Trump’s intuitive grasp of marketing and glad-hand showmanship give him a huge advantage. His challenge now is to stay disciplined, and not shoot himself in the tip.

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2024/06/19/no_tax_on_tips_151119.html

 

[DadSmith]

What Trump can’t say at a debate - Washington Examiner

Trump’s criminal prosecutions could become a topic in the debate, but court orders have restricted the former president in how he will be able to address them.

washingtonexaminer.com

 

[actaeon277]

A Republic is a form of Democracy.

 

[jamil]

I did I just want you to say yes or no they have a real democracy where everything goes to the people before the government does anything.
That is a true democracy and anything else is not.

I'll also add there are no true communist governments as well.
Some form of it, but not as envisioned by Marx and Engels

And you’re no true Scotsman!

A representative democracy is a true democracy. It may not be pure/ direct. But it’s a real thing.

 

[DadSmith]

And you’re no true Scotsman!

A representative democracy is a true democracy. It may not be pure/ direct. But it’s a real thing.

I disagree.
We have a representative republic.
It has a feel or resemble some things that a democracy has, but it isn't a democracy.
Our founders called it a republic yet today many call it a democracy. I guess they feel smarter than a group of men who formed what our government was supposed to be.

Edit:
James Madison called it a republic.
George Washington called it a republic.
Benjamin Franklin called it a republic.
Our constitution says we are a constitutional republic.
Nowhere was democracy mentioned. They didn't want a democracy, and for good reason.

 

[HoosierLife]

I don’t get how Trump can gain 30+ points with black and Latinos and still be only a few % points ahead.

Emerson College Poll: Donald Trump Leads in 6 Swing States Post-Conviction, Ties Joe Biden in One

Donald Trump leads Joe Biden in six swing states, Emerson College polling found, while Biden managed to tie Trump in Minnesota.

www.breitbart.com

 

[bwframe]

 

[DadSmith]

Remember they control the mics.
I wouldn't be surprised they don't turn Trump off many times in this so called debate.

 

[DadSmith]

 

[rbhargan]

I suspect the brain trust at CNN thinks a "Democracy" is when the Democrats control the government and a "Republic" is when Republicans control it. I honestly believe they are that stupid.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

No.