Trump 2024 — The second term

[KG1]

Well, you're not convincing anyone else but maybe you can still convince yourself

I'm convinced that I would pretty much vote for the GOP nominee against Clown World like I always do no matter how much I bit*h about a candidate.

 

[BugI02]

For me, it's more a way to establish where we are with respect to what is the best discerned reality. And then to explain why we don't agree on what reality is

And, of course, what YOU decide is reality is, de facto, the best discerned reality. There is more than a whiff of the stench of Hegel in the way you present this. Why does your little make believe world need to involve me? It's not a lie if you believe it, so you don't need my belief (which is a good thing)

 

[BugI02]

Because they're flaws. If that's your position, why don't you just say, "so what?" when people continually point out flaws? Why do you argue against somethign that is as self evident as Trump's own words, for a technical win? I'm not trying to control you and make you say "so what?" it's that I'm curious why you don't, because that seems to me a better reaction than trying to argue for technical wins.

Stand that on its head. When you perceive what you feel are flaws with Trump, why don't you say 'so what'. Are you arguing with Trump supporters 'for a technical win'

If you are so convinced of the correctness of your position, why do you argue at all? Maybe you're the one you're trying to convince?

 

[jamil]

I know I'll be playing into your hand, but that change took place over an elapsed time of 7 years and although (for any other politician) you acknowledge that people's positions change with time and they reconsider past beliefs, you won't even consider the reasonable doubt that his previous position was said as part of a campaign at a time when he knew little of what would actually be possible as president (especially given the unprecedented and extra-legal war waged against his every move) and perhaps his current position is calibrated to the realities of the moment

Bug, presidential candidates make campaign promises. It's not a deal breaker for me to vote for a candidate who's broken some. I don't even hold that against Trump except when I hear people saying he kept his promises. I think that's an unrealistic expectation for a candidate. Because we have this system now where they have to lie to win.

But, the argument you made above is WAY better than the argument you made when you were trying to get the save. I think there is room for doubt. I thought of that when we were arguing about it. It's possible Trump thought he could pull it off, then things didn't work out. And it may be that in today's climate, he just claims it was an empty campaign promise. We don't know. I'll take his word for now it because it's less obvious to me he'd lie about something like that.

And, of course, you were one of the ones alibiing DeSantis when he folded (like a cheap deck chair) on his position that Ukraine/Russia was a territorial dispute and not existential to the US after only TWO DAYS of pushback from establishment pols, as if a strong candidate should need to retcon what he REALLY meant

Now c'mon. That's bull **** and you should know it. We've been over what's been reported on the usual pro-Trump channels vs what was actually said and what he's said since.

But, who cares at this point. Early on I thought DeSantis would be the guy to vote for. At the time there were many upsides. As he's conducted his campaign, he revealed his own self-doubt. He's too self-conscious about things. It's good to a certain point. I think Trump's complete lack of self doubt is dangerous. Some reality-based self-doubt is good. That kind of self doubt was cured in experience. But having the presence of self doubt to the point you put pads in your shoes to look taller, I mean by itself is not a deal breaker. But the underlying self doubt that reveals is extremely troubling to me.

Also, DeSantis revealed more self-doubt in the aftermath of the vote Tuesday. C'mon. Calling the election didn't favor Trump. If anything it favored the blue-haired activist democrats crossing over for Haley.

I'd rather have someone who 'went to the wall' on the commitment he made, in every legal way he could, in the most important respect - actually building a wall - than have someone who collapses at the first challenge. This is the pattern that is so annoying about your little clique, magnify anything that Trump can be blamed for all out of proportion while giving the shortcomings of others a full pardon. Fewer and fewer are buying what you're selling all the time

See? There you go justifying Trump again. You don't need to do that. Just say the things that are real and the things that are not. The unfulfilled promises about the wall don't really mean anything, except when you argue about them, people will push back. It doesn't matter if Trump didn't make the mexican's pay for it. It only matters when you insist that he's unblemished on that.

Also, you make it clear you resent people who dare to criticize Trump. I don't think we're magnifying what Trump did. I think you guys minimize it. But I don't resent you or Mike or any of the ardent Trumpers. I agree with you guys on probably 90% of the non-Trump things. It's only on the issue of trump where there's this kind of animosity on disagreements. I'm not annoyed by you.

As far of shortcomings of others, did you have something in mind? I mean. I have a problem with brevity as it is, but if you have someone else in mind you'd like me to go on about, I got werds.

 

[jamil]

And, of course, what YOU decide is reality is, de facto, the best discerned reality. There is more than a whiff of the stench of Hegel in the way you present this. Why does your little make believe world need to involve me? It's not a lie if you believe it, so you don't need my belief (which is a good thing)

Reality is, Trump said he had no intention of making mexico pay for the wall. There is no amount of "well, he could have..." that you can do to save that. Doesn't even matter what caused him to say that. Either he was lying then, or he's lying now. But only you care. I don't care if he was or wasn't. You tried to argue to support something that wasn't real.

And you can knock it off on the Hegel stuff. You didn't get it then, and you only use it as a Fischer Price foam hammer now.

 

[jamil]

I like DeSantis. I have nothing against DeSantis. I would vote for DeSantis without holding my nose. It is not his time, he misjudged it. He thought they would bring Trump down and he would inherit the nomination, he is not, I hate that he shot his bullet before it was the right time and he now is damaged. He can recover for another time, but he is over for this cycle.

If Trump is removed those that think that the establishment will put someone and all will be like in the past are delusional…

Well, you're probably a bigger fan of DeSantis now than I am. I'd hold my nose for him. Not an issue of perfection. Maybe I've misjudged him. But his behavior in the last few months makes me think he has a lot of self doubt, and to me that's a big deal.

If Trump is "removed", depending on what you mean by "removed", the logical play is that it is to put in who the establishment wants. I don't think it's delusional to think that.

 

[Tombs]

Bug, presidential candidates make campaign promises. It's not a deal breaker for me to vote for a candidate who's broken some. I don't even hold that against Trump except when I hear people saying he kept his promises. I think that's an unrealistic expectation for a candidate. Because we have this system now where they have to lie to win.

But, the argument you made above is WAY better than the argument you made when you were trying to get the save. I think there is room for doubt. I thought of that when we were arguing about it. It's possible Trump thought he could pull it off, then things didn't work out. And it may be that in today's climate, he just claims it was an empty campaign promise. We don't know. I'll take his word for now it because it's less obvious to me he'd lie about something like that.


Now c'mon. That's bull **** and you should know it. We've been over what's been reported on the usual pro-Trump channels vs what was actually said and what he's said since.

But, who cares at this point. Early on I thought DeSantis would be the guy to vote for. At the time there were many upsides. As he's conducted his campaign, he revealed his own self-doubt. He's too self-conscious about things. It's good to a certain point. I think Trump's complete lack of self doubt is dangerous. Some reality-based self-doubt is good. That kind of self doubt was cured in experience. But having the presence of self doubt to the point you put pads in your shoes to look taller, I mean by itself is not a deal breaker. But the underlying self doubt that reveals is extremely troubling to me.

Also, DeSantis revealed more self-doubt in the aftermath of the vote Tuesday. C'mon. Calling the election didn't favor Trump. If anything it favored the blue-haired activist democrats crossing over for Haley.


See? There you go justifying Trump again. You don't need to do that. Just say the things that are real and the things that are not. The unfulfilled promises about the wall don't really mean anything, except when you argue about them, people will push back. It doesn't matter if Trump didn't make the mexican's pay for it. It only matters when you insist that he's unblemished on that.

Also, you make it clear you resent people who dare to criticize Trump. I don't think we're magnifying what Trump did. I think you guys minimize it. But I don't resent you or Mike or any of the ardent Trumpers. I agree with you guys on probably 90% of the non-Trump things. It's only on the issue of trump where there's this kind of animosity on disagreements. I'm not annoyed by you.

As far of shortcomings of others, did you have something in mind? I mean. I have a problem with brevity as it is, but if you have someone else in mind you'd like me to go on about, I got werds.

I don't like the implication that if someone exhausts all the options to do something, while remaining inside of constitutional bounds, they broke their campaign promise to deliver their pledge.

Sometimes things just can't be accomplished due to a number of things, but if the candidate made the honest effort to do what he said he would, I feel like he deserves the nod for it.

If we had a dictator/king, then that'd be different.

 

[manifest destiny]

There's no other President in U.S. history that has been subjected to the witch hunt Donald Trump is fighting. None. Love him or hate him, he's being abused. Twisting his words, twisting the law, hounding his confidants and on occasion whole cloth fabrication of crimes atributed to him. A word of caution to those who feel his treatment warranted.... your candidate is next.

 

[DadSmith]

Republicans Must Accept The Reality Of The Imperfect Candidate

Are voters blind to Trump’s flaws? His legal situation? Nope. It’s that they have decided perfection isn't the goal.

thefederalist.com

 

[jamil]

I don't like the implication that if someone exhausts all the options to do something, while remaining inside of constitutional bounds, they broke their campaign promise to deliver their pledge.

Sometimes things just can't be accomplished due to a number of things, but if the candidate made the honest effort to do what he said he would, I feel like he deserves the nod for it.

If we had a dictator/king, then that'd be different.

We’re talking about an issue that Trump himself said was just a campaign promise he had no intention of keeping. Why are you arguing that he made any honest effort to fulfill it? He told you he didn’t.

See? This is what I’m talking about. Why is it so important to you that he perfectly kept or tried to keep his campaign promises? Who cares? He is a politician. They have to do that to win. Who actually took that promise seriously? Did you? I didn’t.

 

[KG1]

We’re talking about an issue that Trump himself said was just a campaign promise he had no intention of keeping. Why are you arguing that he made any honest effort to fulfill it? He told you he didn’t.

See? This is what I’m talking about. Why is it so important to you that he perfectly kept or tried to keep his campaign promises? Who cares? He is a politician. They have to do that to win. Who actually took that promise seriously? Did you? I didn’t.

I believe Trump even admitted that there was no legal mechanism to make Mexico pay for a wall like he promised that they would.

 

[Tombs]

We’re talking about an issue that Trump himself said was just a campaign promise he had no intention of keeping. Why are you arguing that he made any honest effort to fulfill it? He told you he didn’t.

See? This is what I’m talking about. Why is it so important to you that he perfectly kept or tried to keep his campaign promises? Who cares? He is a politician. They have to do that to win. Who actually took that promise seriously? Did you? I didn’t.

So he didn't make an effort to build a wall, and he didn't get roadblocked and discover that there was no mechanism to make mexico pay for it?

He can say it was a campaign promise he had no intention of keeping, but the track record does not look that way to me. With his ego and mannerisms, after getting roadblocked he just proclaims he didn't intend to do it anyway. That seems consistent with his character to me.

 

[Ingomike]

@BugI02 will love this.

“Perfect Is the Enemy of Good”​

“Perfect candidate? Please. No such thing. We are a complicated people, all of us, and our preferences are equally complex.“

But you guys keep looking for it…

Republicans Must Accept The Reality Of The Imperfect Candidate

Are voters blind to Trump’s flaws? His legal situation? Nope. It’s that they have decided perfection isn't the goal.

thefederalist.com

Republicans Must Accept The Reality Of The Imperfect Candidate

Are voters blind to Trump’s flaws? His legal situation? Nope. It’s that they have decided perfection isn't the goal.

thefederalist.com

Hey Dad, Welcome to the party pal.

That article was what started this whole conversation four pages ago today…

 

[DadSmith]

 

[KG1]

So he didn't make an effort to build a wall, and he didn't get roadblocked and discover that there was no mechanism to make mexico pay for it?

He can say it was a campaign promise he had no intention of keeping, but the track record does not look that way to me. With his ego and mannerisms, after getting roadblocked he just proclaims he didn't intend to do it anyway. That seems consistent with his character to me.

This looks like a ding to me.

 

[manifest destiny]

Trump isn't without faults. The Trump bashing has become fashionable. Critique Trump and you're labeled TDS. Defend Trump and you're labeled a sycophant. Then we lock arms and do si do. Remember when his tax records were gonna get 'em? Remember when he was impeached for asking a country that receives U.S. money to look for corruption? Remember when he was a Russian stooge? Remember... never mind.

#trumpbashfashion

 

[jamil]

So he didn't make an effort to build a wall, and he didn't get roadblocked and discover that there was no mechanism to make mexico pay for it?

He can say it was a campaign promise he had no intention of keeping, but the track record does not look that way to me. With his ego and mannerisms, after getting roadblocked he just proclaims he didn't intend to do it anyway. That seems consistent with his character to me.

I didn’t say anything about the wall. Just about making Mexico pay for it.

So let me get this straight. Without any evidence he even tried to make Mexico pay for it, you want to cop to Trump being too naive to know what everyone else knew, that there’s no ****ing way he can make Mexico pay for it, and didn’t find out until he tried. But to top it off, you have to insist that Trump lied when he said he had no intention of fulfilling it.

You’re making my case for me. What better explains it than that you must think you have to defend every accusation of imperfection. C’mon man. Make a better case to the contrary.

 

[manifest destiny]

Trump being too naive to know what everyone else knew, that there’s no ****ing way he can make Mexico pay for it, and didn’t find out until he tried.

I think this is a true statement. Trump didn't know a lot of **** about professional politics. What parts he might have known were scrambled, distorted and used against him.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

Ugh.

JUST IN: Trump Eyeing Top Republican Woman For VP Slot

Former President Donald Trump has told advisors in recent days that he is revisiting his consideration of House GOP Conference Chair Elise Stefanik (R-NY),

trendingpoliticsnews.com

 

[jamil]

I think during a Trump rally in the 2016 campaign, Trump talks about the wall, then throws it out there he’ll make Mexico pay for it. The crowd loves it so he starts making it a part of the stump speech and it becomes a “campaign promise. Then 7 years later he admits he never intended to actually make Mexico pay for the wall. No wild ass assumptions needed.