Training the caveman vs. training the athlete

[Jackson]

Any training has to be done thousands and thousands of times, rep after rep. Is that what most of these civilians do after an 8 hour tactical type class? They go home and spend 30 min, 40, 50, or an hour a day practicing what they learned? Then they spend each weekend shooting scenarios to reinforce all the training?

Is that what the average cop or military guy does after training? I doubt they practice at home much more than the average shooter motivated enough to take a class. They just get all that paid-for, required training. :-)

Also, if the average gun owner does not have the motiviation to practice for master class compeition status, or every weekend after a "tactical" class, does that mean the class had no value or he shouldn't try to build some skill? Is it all or nothing?

What you mentoined is pretty much what I used to do. I used to spend every weekend at the range working skill-based drills, "scenarios", and other stuff. Unfortunately I haven't been to the range with any consistency in over a year. But yes, many people who take classes actually go to the range and practice what they learned. You don't have to be a competitor to practice. Why is practice reseved for those who spend their weekends at USPSA matches.

 

[Killion]

In my opinion... In order to get the full affect of stress from a match, you have to really want to compete. I think if you just show up to a match and don't care how you do, and shoot the stage leisurely. Yes you will not be stressed! If you want to shoot **** fast as possible and not suck...maybe try to beat a good shooter...then you will feel the stress!! When I started shooting USPSA in July, I couldn't stop shaking before the timer went off. Everything was a blur, I didn't see my sights, I couldn't remember which target I shot, I forgot reloads, I fumbled reloads. I had jams and took 5 seconds to clear them because I was so nervous and stressed. My reaction times were slow, my draw was slow, moving from target to target was ****. Everything was horrible.. oh and I missed about every target! I have never felt so stressed! If I didn't give a ****, I would have still sucked but not nearly as stressed!

Now after 5 months 15,000 or more rounds, a lot of matches and tons of practice. Its a completely different story. If my gun jams...boom instinctively clear that **** and boom boom. Everything has slowed down. tenths of seconds feel like seconds. If i drop a mag I automatically grab another...no hesitation. I can transition from target to target 3 times a fast as before. I just feel so comfortable with the gun. Any malfunction you can possibly have with a gun...I have had..so many times that it barely becomes a hiccup. and as far as malfunctions go...shoot matches because this is where they happen! If you think you have a good gun...shoot competitions and see what a piece of **** it really is!!

If you want to be tac timmy...awesome! But you are ****ing yourself if you don't shoot competitions! You just can't beat it! If you get good at uspsa....then you can **** up all those tactical turds you train with! They will be like damn...this guy is tactical as **** but shoot 4 times faster than us! They will throw down their guns and raise those white French flags!

 

[Fourtrax]

And taking a class or two wouldn't shorten that up for a new shooter? Maybe pack some of the highlights in to a few days of instruction?




That's where I'm not so sure (regarding the emphasized portions, the rest is probably true). I have participated in some competitions and some training classes. I think the competition was great for gun handling and marksmanship, but not so stressful. I commonly hear on INGO that its the only or the best way to develop high-level gun handling and marksmanship. I tend to think it is mainly because of the hours of practice and number of rounds down range in practicing and not directly related to the competition. In other words, it could be achieved by putting in the work without competing. Competitors just tend to practice more. There were quite a few other skills and topics covered in the training classes I attended which didn't come up in competition. Were they all necessary? I guess that depends on what you think is necessary. Apparently you wouldn't think so. :-) I am very confident however, that the practice and shooting volume would do great things for my speed and accuracy.



I am only in Indiana part-time since I relocated out of state for work. When I am here I am a couple hours away from Peru. That being said, if I can find the time, I'll do it. I'm sure my gun handling could use some refinement. I am not necessarily interested in competition for the sake of competing. I'm mainly just interested in building skills, and I figure it is also the best way to have an informed opinion in these conversations. For some background, I've done a few USPSA matches, some Instructional Leagues with Coach, and some Friday Night Steels mostly just for fun. It would be interesting to see if going from unclassified non-competitor to well-classfied compeition shooter brings some enlightenment about my trianing choices. I should be in town until January 5th. I could probably make it happen during either weekend between now and then if you really want. After that, it will be more difficult to schedule.

I doubt I could fit 50 competitions a year in to my schedule due to work travel and other things. So I may never achieve the level necessary for enlightenment. :-P



I'll do what I can. I'm not sure deciding not to go learn from a random guy on the internet would be that big a deal. But I don't want to leave you speachless. :-)



I don't know about that. I doubt I know anything a serious competitor like Fourtrax hasn't come across. I welcome the opportunity to learn though.

Jackson, honestly, what Coach taught would be what I'd teach. It's not rocket science. My whole point has been about the "high level type of competitor". IMHO this guy does 25 or more competitions a year and is serious about the sport. They do practice, or did practice a lot at some point. Nothing I'd show you would matter if you didn't spend some serious time practicing. And there are no secrets, Coach has showed you most everything I'm sure. Additionally, as mentioned, I am literally just a random guy on the internet. I don't hold classes or have any type of training regimen.

Taking classes will shorten the learning curve, if, and only if, you would put in the hours and hours needed. There are no secret short cuts. NONE. It takes hours and hours and countless rounds. See, if you did that, then you would be vested, then the match does become a more stressful type of event, because you want more out of it than just finishing or having fun. You want the win. You can't get that win without the stress and learning how to deal with stress. I know a lot of shooters that are there for the fun and friendship, they never get stressed.

I am by no means anything special and want no one to think such, I'm hoping your whole Fourtrax and serious competitor comment was sarcastic. I am as serious as a full time job, wife in nursing school, and 4 daughters and a son allow me to be. What CB45 did in 2 years took me 10 years. I do have lots of info and love to shoot and help people that want to improve their shooting. That's about all I could offer. Of course, just hanging out and shooting is cool, I do have the range, so the offer stands if you ever want to just shoot.

 

[Jackson]

In my opinion... In order to get the full affect of stress from a match, you have to really want to compete. I think if you just show up to a match and don't care how you do, and shoot the stage leisurely. Yes you will not be stressed! If you want to shoot **** fast as possible and not suck...maybe try to beat a good shooter...then you will feel the stress!! When I started shooting USPSA in July, I couldn't stop shaking before the timer went off. Everything was a blur, I didn't see my sights, I couldn't remember which target I shot, I forgot reloads, I fumbled reloads. I had jams and took 5 seconds to clear them because I was so nervous and stressed. My reaction times were slow, my draw was slow, moving from target to target was ****. Everything was horrible.. oh and I missed about every target! I have never felt so stressed! If I didn't give a ****, I would have still sucked but not nearly as stressed!

Now after 5 months 15,000 or more rounds, a lot of matches and tons of practice. Its a completely different story. If my gun jams...boom instinctively clear that **** and boom boom. Everything has slowed down. tenths of seconds feel like seconds. If i drop a mag I automatically grab another...no hesitation. I can transition from target to target 3 times a fast as before. I just feel so comfortable with the gun. Any malfunction you can possibly have with a gun...I have had..so many times that it barely becomes a hiccup. and as far as malfunctions go...shoot matches because this is where they happen! If you think you have a good gun...shoot competitions and see what a piece of **** it really is!!

If you want to be tac timmy...awesome! But you are ****ing yourself if you don't shoot competitions! You just can't beat it! If you get good at uspsa....then you can **** up all those tactical turds you train with! They will be like damn...this guy is tactical as **** but shoot 4 times faster than us! They will throw down their guns and raise those white French flags!

I did not have nearly that much trouble in my first competition. I wouldn't say I shot it leisurely. I did make an attempt to be fast and accurate. It is possible to get that experience by running a lot of rounds down range outside of competition. There are plenty of methods for training malfunctions, too.

 

[Jackson]

Jackson, honestly, what Coach taught would be what I'd teach. It's not rocket science. My whole point has been about the "high level type of competitor". IMHO this guy does 25 or more competitions a year and is serious about the sport. They do practice, or did practice a lot at some point. Nothing I'd show you would matter if you didn't spend some serious time practicing. And there are no secrets, Coach has showed you most everything I'm sure. Additionally, as mentioned, I am literally just a random guy on the internet. I don't hold classes or have any type of training regimen. Taking classes will shorten the learning curve, if, and only if, you would put in the hours and hours needed. There are no secret short cuts. NONE. It takes hours and hours and countless rounds. See, if you did that, then you would be vested, then the match does become a more stressful type of event, because you want more out of it than just finishing or having fun. You want the win. You can't get that win without the stress and learning how to deal with stress. I know a lot of shooters that are there for the fun and friendship, they never get stressed. I am by no means anything special and want no one to think such, I'm hoping your whole Fourtrax and serious competitor comment was sarcastic. I am as serious as a full time job, wife in nursing school, and 4 daughters and a son allow me to be. What CB45 did in 2 years took me 10 years. I do have lots of info and love to shoot and help people that want to improve their shooting. That's about all I could offer. Of course, just hanging out and shooting is cool, I do have the range, so the offer stands if you ever want to just shoot.

And they could get that good putting in the time without competing as well. So really what we're saying is skill level is dependent on the amount of time spent practicing, regardless of the motivation for the practice. At least, that's what I'm saying.

It wasn't entirely sarcastic. I am quite confident I'd have much to learn from an experienced competitor. I'm not starting at zero skills, but I know there is room for improvement. If you want to give me some pointers I'm up for it. I'll post a full report of what I learned here on the forum. :-)

 

[Rob377]

In my opinion... In order to get the full affect of stress from a match, you have to really want to compete. I think if you just show up to a match and don't care how you do, and shoot the stage leisurely. Yes you will not be stressed! If you want to shoot **** fast as possible and not suck...maybe try to beat a good shooter...then you will feel the stress!! When I started shooting USPSA in July, I couldn't stop shaking before the timer went off. Everything was a blur, I didn't see my sights, I couldn't remember which target I shot, I forgot reloads, I fumbled reloads. I had jams and took 5 seconds to clear them because I was so nervous and stressed. My reaction times were slow, my draw was slow, moving from target to target was ****. Everything was horrible.. oh and I missed about every target! I have never felt so stressed! If I didn't give a ****, I would have still sucked but not nearly as stressed!

Now after 5 months 15,000 or more rounds, a lot of matches and tons of practice. Its a completely different story. If my gun jams...boom instinctively clear that **** and boom boom. Everything has slowed down. tenths of seconds feel like seconds. If i drop a mag I automatically grab another...no hesitation. I can transition from target to target 3 times a fast as before. I just feel so comfortable with the gun. Any malfunction you can possibly have with a gun...I have had..so many times that it barely becomes a hiccup. and as far as malfunctions go...shoot matches because this is where they happen! If you think you have a good gun...shoot competitions and see what a piece of **** it really is!!

If you want to be tac timmy...awesome! But you are ****ing yourself if you don't shoot competitions! You just can't beat it! If you get good at uspsa....then you can **** up all those tactical turds you train with! They will be like damn...this guy is tactical as **** but shoot 4 times faster than us! They will throw down their guns and raise those white French flags!

Funny, but true on all counts. I RO'ed this guy his first steel match. He isn't lying. I thought he was going to have a seizure. (and his POS HK didn't help his game any. HK shooters are almost always the worst. )

To Jackson's question, Killion is good example of what even a short time of consistent training and practice will do. He's pretty damn good with a gun these days. I sure as **** wouldn't want to be in a gunfight against him.

It's also a good point on the effect of how much you care about the outcome being related to stess levels. High level competitors that know what facing death feels like will tell you competition is right up there in terms of stress level. Low level competitors that don't care if they get their butts handed to them don't feel the same, because they have nothing invested, nothing to lose. I think there's actually an extremely important MINDSET lesson in that alone.

 

[Killion]

I did not have nearly that much trouble in my first competition. I wouldn't say I shot it leisurely. I did make an attempt to be fast and accurate. It is possible to get that experience by running a lot of rounds down range outside of competition. There are plenty of methods for training malfunctions, too.

I'm not really sure what your talking about? loading bad rounds randomly in a mag so it jams when you shoot?? Either way you know its coming. I just think that when it pops up out of the blue and catches you off guard....man you really can't beat that. It is amazing how that can mess you up when you have no idea its coming. Thats like telling me your going to punch me and I have to block it. Well if I know its coming...no big deal. If your a dick and just throw a punch and I have to react...thats a little different story!

 

[Jackson]

To Jackson's question, Killion is good example of what even a short time of consistent training and practice will do.

Certainly. I'm a big advocate for both trianing and practice. I just don't think training and practice is reserved only for competitors.

 

[Killion]

Rob....you are one of the funniest ****ers I have ever met! Seizure! Funny but so true!

 

[Rob377]

Certainly. I'm a big advocate for both trianing and practice. I just don't think training and practice is reserved only for competitors.

Then you're already on the athlete track.

 

[Jackson]

I'm not really sure what your talking about? loading bad rounds randomly in a mag so it jams when you shoot?? Either way you know its coming. I just think that when it pops up out of the blue and catches you off guard....man you really can't beat that. It is amazing how that can mess you up when you have no idea its coming. Thats like telling me your going to punch me and I have to block it. Well if I know its coming...no big deal. If your a dick and just throw a punch and I have to react...thats a little different story!

It doesn't hurt for learning the mechanics. However, I agree one has to shoot their gun enough to find its limits and have real failures. And competition is a great way to do that. I am glad you got so much out of it. I am just saying it isn't the only way. As mentioned above, I am willing to put some time in to competing to find out how much it adds to the equation.

 

[Jackson]

Then you're already on the athlete track.

Excellent. Now I know what to call it.
But I don't necessarily think the "Caveman" camp people are saying practice is unnecessary.

 

[Fourtrax]

And they could get that good putting in the time without competing as well. So really what we're saying is skill level is dependent on the amount of time spent practicing, regardless of the motivation for the practice. At least, that's what I'm saying. :-)

Sure, but you are missing the STRESS. Which has been my premise all along. When you invest in being the best competitor you can be, you are gonna feel the stress. No investment, no stress.

Its the the total combination that I have been talking about from the beginning. The guy who practices and places himself in legal stressful scenarios. This guy is the serious type competitor that develops mad skill. Without the practice or self induced stress, he's not much better than average Joe.

 

[cedartop]

Is that what the average cop or military guy does after training? I doubt they practice at home much more than the average shooter motivated enough to take a class. They just get all that paid-for, required training. :-)

Also, if the average gun owner does not have the motiviation to practice for master class compeition status, or every weekend after a "tactical" class, does that mean the class had no value or he shouldn't try to build some skill? Is it all or nothing?

What you mentoined is pretty much what I used to do. I used to spend every weekend at the range working skill-based drills, "scenarios", and other stuff. Unfortunately I haven't been to the range with any consistency in over a year. But yes, many people who take classes actually go to the range and practice what they learned. You don't have to be a competitor to practice. Why is practice reseved for those who spend their weekends at USPSA matches.

No Jackson, the "average" cop or military guy does not do that. I practiced and trained more than most when I was on the department, but yet I train far more now, and much better as well. That is not to say there aren't hard training cops out there, I have had them in my classes, but they are few and far between.

 

[Jackson]

The OP framed this as "caveman" vs. "athlete" gun-handling techniques. Is there a caveman verbal conflict de-escalation technique? "Grog no want your woman, Grog have no problem, Grog leave now"


Someone above mentioned a "magic talisman" line of thinking. So much of the "caveman" method as preached by "trainers" is exactly that. It's like one of those over blown infomercials in a way. "Get competent with a gun in one easy technique and no practice!! Act now and we'll throw in this FREE James Yeager beer coozy!"

I've seen it a number of times: Guy goes to tactical fantasy camp, where they drill all the BS about how "Hick's law" and "fine motor skills" mean that all they have to do is pay their money, do the class, and boom, they're competent "operators." That guy shows up at a match, gun goes click for whatever reason, and then they stare at it like monkey doing a math problem for awhile. They were sold a magic talisman. They thought that going to that fantasy camp and learning the "never fail" method would absolve them of any responsibility for developing their own skill to even a basic level.

It's the "8 -minute abs" of the gun world.

The want to believe that the magic hickslawgrossmotorskill talisman (tm) is going to allow them to instantly react with flawless technique when it matters, without having to put in much if any practice. Spoiler alert - it doesn't.

They're really doing themselves a tremendous disservice, and the "trainers" pushing those methods as competence without practice aren't helping anyone.

I don't think most of these trainers are pushing these techniques as competence without practice. I've never heard any of them say you don't need to practice. I've heard plenty say you should practice frequently.

 

[Jackson]

High level competitors that know what facing death feels like will tell you competition is right up there in terms of stress level.

Has this been your experience? Is competition as stressful for you as life-or-death situations in which you've been involved?

 

[Rob377]

I don't think most of these trainers are pushing these techniques as competence without practice. I've never heard any of them say you don't need to practice. I've heard plenty say you should practice frequently.

...and yet nearly every poster here in favor of caveman style has justified it in terms of their inability or unwillingness to practice.

 

[Rob377]

Has this been your experience? Is competition as stressful for you as life-or-death situations in which you've been involved?

Yes.

 

[cedartop]

...and yet nearly every poster here in favor of caveman style has justified it in terms of their inability or unwillingness to practice.

Rob, we teach combatives not martial arts. One of the reasons is that it is very effective while being easier to learn. We tell the students you still have to practice it to make it work, but since it is distilled down to many fewer "caveman" techniques, it is much easier to learn well enough to make it work. We then have them practice it against real resistance. I always make the point that even though this is simpler, that DOES NOT mean you don't have to ingrain it through practice. To me this is the same whether we are talking knives, hands, guns, whatever. There is no answer for the truly lazy.

 

[VERT]

I was thinking about this thread last night at Ta Kwon Do class. A black belt was teaching me a new form and I was getting frustrated. Forms are something that has to be drilled and are to be performed in a very exact way. They reinforce technique and if a person goes to tournaments are scored. The techniques used in sparring are similar but not the same. Yes these go hand in hand and the good practitioners are experts in both, but they differ as well. Maybe a poor anology but it struck me at the time.

I enjoy shooting my monthly match at the local club. But I do not consider it overly stressful. Maybe the difference is that I do not vest much time in the competitive aspect. I enjoy tne shooting and use it as an opportunity to reinforce my basics. Competition at the local level is a great way to practice your gun handling in a fun and friendly environment. There are skills that transfer to self defense, afterall it is practical shooting. I do think there are other aspects of self defense that are not covered by competition alone.