Training the caveman vs. training the athlete

[cedartop]

Competition will get you killed. True story.

Rob, now you know dang well that is not what I am saying.

 

[Rob377]

Rob, now you know dang well that is not what I am saying.

Of course I know that. I was highlighting the flip side of your point, because there are people that DO say it, and I like to poke fun at them.

Especially now that I've done my super expensive, super time consuming dry fire practice for the day. Which of course requires me to be in tip-top physical shape. (and by tip-top shape, I mean "round") With that out of the way, it's time for interweb shenanigans.

 

[the1kidd03]

I never really got the whole competition vs. "tactical" rift till now. Like so many things it appears to be more about the person than the content. I have trained with and learned from a lot of people who meld competition with real world/tactical and it always seemed like a pretty good fit. Guys like Ayoob, Hackathorn, McNamara, Proctor, and on and on all supplement their training with competing. Up until now I had never heard anyone say that competition will prepare you for all of your lethal force encounters and that is all you need. Wow!

All those times passed when I've jumped in the competition vs tactical debate....this is the perspective I'm trying to point out/have issue with (although it often was misinterpreted as having something against comp shooters.)

I've come across far too many people who've felt this way from competition shooting, when there is considerably more to consider when someone intent on doing you harm comes up. I lovingly call it the competition Rambo syndrome. lol

 

[ViperJock]

To to the poster who asked what I'm gonna do in a close quarter knife attack, when I have a gun, I say, ....I'm gonna probably go get stitches or operated on, my attacker is going to the morgue. The whole drawing a gun thing cracks me up, what do you think my draw to shot is at contact range anyway?.

Uh oh. Somebody is having delusions of grandeur again.... You have either never been in any actual fight or you need to go back on your meds. Or both.

 

[Fourtrax]

My job is stressful, my wife is stressful... none of which prepares me for an attacker.

In essence, it seems you are trying to make a case that instead of training our troops in urban warfare tactics, we could simply sign them up for competitive shooting.... There is more involved in it than that and I think you know that.

Few points:

First, the wife probably comes the closest for all things related to an attack and situational awareness, funny, but almost true. If you need more situational awareness than is required to keep a woman happy, then once again I ask,.....how the heck did your ancestors escape the watering hole? But alas, NOTHING compares to that situation, NOTHING. I've simply stated that I think high level competition done regularly is better than anything else.


Second

I have stated that I'm not talking about law enforcement or military. I am talking about the 99.99999999% of tactical types who play video games all day and attend FoF training because it such a valuable skill builder for their day job, which is not in the law enforcement or military community.

Its a dupe. Crock, sham, scam, a whole subset of the "gun culture" designed to take your money. You can tell when you have been compromised because you use terms like "situational awareness" and "FoF" while never having served a day in the military or law enforcement. Furthermore you are serious and earnest about those terms.

But, there is help, go back to my first posts and find the questions I've repeated over and over. Make those a positive in your life, Then go compete and have some fun.

Edited to add: for my fourth team mate in my fake gunfighter club, I pick TrukSnave, He is just stone cold stone cold. Plus he drives a car that gets 60 mpg or some such crap, which is a must have nowadays.

 

[Randy Harris]

Like Cedartop mentions, some people actually DO have both perspectives. There are instructors out there who are master class shooters. But they are the exception not the norm.

You usually have the "Gamesman" who has never been to any training who says he knows all he needs to know about combat yet has not been in even a fist fight since he was 12 OR you have the "Combat Master" who says that all match shooting is useless and you don't need .12 split times to win a gunfight ...yet you can time his shooting with a sundial.

But there are guys who actually know about the "minutia" of how life and death stress (and it IS different than match stress) affects you, who do know about OODA cycles and human reaction time, who know how to read body language and pick up on the cues of impending criminal assault before it actually happens, and who know that just because you carry a gun does not mean you have no need for hand to hand skills, and who can absolutely smoke 95% of the people they would ever run into in an alley OR at a match.


Being an excellent shooter OR a solid tactician OR a solid fighter are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes scientists are good athletes too.....

 

[churchmouse]

This thread is funny.

My my point is, 99.99999999% of the people paying for this type of training have almost no chance of ever using it! none! zip! zilch.

It it a whole industry designed to take money from saps with a Walter Mitty type personality.

To to the poster who asked what I'm gonna do in a close quarter knife attack, when I have a gun, I say, ....I'm gonna probably go get stitches or operated on, my attacker is going to the morgue. The whole drawing a gun thing cracks me up, what do you think my draw to shot is at contact range anyway? See, I know these numbers, you seem caught up in the theory and minutiae.


edited to add: I pick Coach to be my third member of my fake gunfight team. If it comes to anything other than guns, Coach is beating someone to death, pretty sure. If it comes to guns, well he's damn good there too.

I have never paid anyone but Coach for any training. Yup...damn fine shot....yup...damn fast at it as well. Looks like he can hold his own in a brawl.

If you have ever really been in a close encounter with a knife wielding nut job (yes I have....more than once) I find my last thought is my side arm. My 1st/2nd/3rd thoughts are to detain/maintain/break his freaking neck or bust his melon with said sidearm. Not broken any necks but have split a few melons. So much less paperwork and legal involvement if you do not shoot the idiot.

Every one acts/reacts in what they see as appropriate. Training is only good if you actually get something from it and maintain the regimen. A 4 to 8 hr. course is useless unless you continue to hone any skills you may have retained.

 

[jaschutz79]

Ok...Since we are giving OPINIONS, lets hear from someone that has both competitive and FoF experience.

Backround. Not LEO, Not Military, BS in Criminal Justice because i was going after a LEO career, only 3 years of competitive shooting, B class USPSA in production and limited(in my first year), 1 year of 3 gun competition, only classes taken. RO in USPSA, Rifle w some pistol Ron Avery/Travis Haley, ECQC with Craig Douglas and Paul Sharp.

Life experience. Twice had a gun stuck in my face, been jumped once and multiple fights in my dumber days.

Let me first preface that Fourtrax and myself shot together quite a few times on the same squad and "team". He has been nothing but helpful and respectful.

Competition has far and away been the best avenue in gaining shooting and gun handling skills. I was lucky enough to have some mid to high level shooters take me under their wing and really teach me a ton. Hell i might have beat them on a few stages. But the difference between guys like me and A, Master and GM is their efficiency and being consistent.

So fast forward to this year. Had some life changes that forced me to put more time toward my career and family. Did not compete at all this year but took a few classes. One of them was ECQC. Reason I took the class was to gain some perspective from the FoF side of training. I felt confident that my competitive back round and H.S. wrestling would give me the upper hand. While it definitely helped, it wasn't enough. You see i guess I'm the .000001% that Fourtrax is talking about. I have drawn my gun, i have been in a contact fight with two guns in play. And i wish i would have taken ECQC before that had happened.

So while it is healthy to debate what could happen and how you would handle it, there is no substitution for experience. In my experience, competition and FoF training were both immensely important.

 

[CB45]

Is this discussion still about firearms training tactics? Caveman vs Athletic type training?

It looks like this is starting to divert into hand to hand combat vs weapons defense thread. Dumb.

Thread fail.

Back on tpoic, IMO, definitely athletic training. Motor skills become refined through training.

If I were too take any "tactical" training, it would be from someone like Bob Vogel. He's about as legit as it gets. Someone who is both a competitve shooter champion and a tactical trainer.

Lots of fluff and hot air in the "Tactical Training" world. Don't believe me? Just you tube it. I really can't believe people pay for that stuff.

 

[Rob377]

Is this discussion still about firearms training tactics? Caveman vs Athletic type training?

It looks like this is starting to divert into hand to hand combat vs weapons defense thread. Dumb.

Thread fail.

Back on tpoic, IMO, definitely athletic training. Motor skills become refined through training.

If I were too take any "tactical" training, it would be from someone like Bob Vogel. He's about as legit as it gets. Someone who is both a competitve shooter champion and a tactical trainer.

Lots of fluff and hot air in the "Tactical Training" world. Don't believe me? Just you tube it. I really can't believe people pay for that stuff.

Boom.

I give you the Critical Dynamic Tactical Riverdance.

[video=youtube;OsCU5gRxAxE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCU5gRxAxE[/video]

 

[Jackson]

So if I were to achieve A class in USPSA or the equivalent in IDPA, would I find that what Ive learned in other training venues is invalid? I am willing to test that if my travel schedule will permit me to attend enough matches.

For you higher-level competitors, how much time would I need to put in to get there? Coach has seen me shoot. Maybe I can take a couple of his comp classes so he can tell me how big a gap I have to close? I wonder if I can make A class within the 2014 shooting season (assuming USPSA has a season.)

 

[esrice]

I give you the Critical Dynamic Tactical Riverdance.

I'll raise you a Hot Tub start.

[video=youtube;kKQ9yhktBu8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKQ9yhktBu8[/video]

 

[bwframe]

How many shooters strap on their self defense gun for the trip home from the match?

 

[Jackson]

As for the OP Caveman vs Athlete? It doesnt matter. Pick some techniques that work and practice them a whole bunch. Learn some different techniques and practice those too. Then test them out in an environment as close to the real thing as you can get and modify as necessary. Then test them under different scenarios. When you find what works for you in those various scenarios, keep practicing it. Then maybe test it a little more. Then practice it some more. I find it difficult to believe that using the slide stop vs racking the slide or hunched vs upright shooting position are going to be the determining factors in a real situation. Using either effectively will do the job.

I guess I like both. That's what I think about the OP.

 

[Rob377]

I'll raise you a Hot Tub start.

[video=youtube;kKQ9yhktBu8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKQ9yhktBu8[/video]

When those guys start trying to sell me a several hundred dollar class teaching the proper way to draw while jumping out of hot tub (while keeping a straight face), I'm totally signing up.

 

[lucky4034]

Few points:

First, the wife probably comes the closest for all things related to an attack and situational awareness, funny, but almost true. If you need more situational awareness than is required to keep a woman happy, then once again I ask,.....how the heck did your ancestors escape the watering hole? But alas, NOTHING compares to that situation, NOTHING. I've simply stated that I think high level competition done regularly is better than anything else.


Second

I have stated that I'm not talking about law enforcement or military. I am talking about the 99.99999999% of tactical types who play video games all day and attend FoF training because it such a valuable skill builder for their day job, which is not in the law enforcement or military community.

Its a dupe. Crock, sham, scam, a whole subset of the "gun culture" designed to take your money. You can tell when you have been compromised because you use terms like "situational awareness" and "FoF" while never having served a day in the military or law enforcement. Furthermore you are serious and earnest about those terms.

But, there is help, go back to my first posts and find the questions I've repeated over and over. Make those a positive in your life, Then go compete and have some fun.

Edited to add: for my fourth team mate in my fake gunfighter club, I pick TrukSnave, He is just stone cold stone cold. Plus he drives a car that gets 60 mpg or some such crap, which is a must have nowadays.

A. I have served in the military
B. I have never purchased firearm training outside of it
C. I never used the term situational awareness until years after my service
D. I'd rather invest time and money into competition than into self defense training... because as I've mentioned, the cost doesn't outweigh the benefit for me. I might be screwed if some ninja comes after me with a knife, but it is what it is.... Much like you, I don't plan on spending 100 hrs training to stop him.

However... lets not pretend situational awareness is something your born with. It comes from life experience and IQ... something we are all not blessed with. My mother for instance doesn't recognize dangers the way i do. She is more than comfortable wearing a $5000 gold chain and $10k diamond in a shady neighborhood to buy a good plate of bbq ribs.

I would also be more than willing to purchase training for my fiance, brother or mother as the cost/benefit ratio with them is much higher and none of them are interested in shooting sports.

Training isn't for everyone and is more beneficial to some than it is others for a number of reasons... but that doesn't make it a sham or a crock of ****. And regardless of your skill level, there is plenty of good information available and most of it is cheap or free. Project Appleseed is a great example of that. Many of accomplished shooters have taken the $80 weekend course and walked away with more than their monies worth in rifleman skills and a gratifying sense of heritage.

 

[CB45]

"Dynamic Critical Incident", cracks me up every time I hear it.

I guess ignorance is bliss...

 

[churchmouse]

Boom.

I give you the Critical Dynamic Tactical Riverdance.

[video=youtube;OsCU5gRxAxE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCU5gRxAxE[/video]

I would bust my A$$ trying that.....1911, no need.....

 

[Rob377]

I would bust my A$$ trying that.....1911, no need.....

heh, so would I.

So much for 1-technique to do it all. Now I have to learn to be Michael Flatley with a gun? F that.

 

[esrice]

So much for 1-technique to do it all. Now I have to learn to be Michael Flatley with a gun? F that.

I heard that in the Advanced course you learn to do it while jumping.

Add me to the list of those who would fall flat on their face.