Training the caveman vs. training the athlete

[cedartop]

Boom.

I give you the Critical Dynamic Tactical Riverdance.

[video=youtube;OsCU5gRxAxE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsCU5gRxAxE[/video]

That seems to be a combo of athlete and caveman. After actually meeting the guy I have to say I sorta like Rob, but I wonder, if I am at slide lock why don't I just use the slide lock/release lever at that point.

 

[the1kidd03]

That seems to be a combo of athlete and caveman. After actually meeting the guy I have to say I sorta like Rob, but I wonder, if I am at slide lock why don't I just use the slide lock/release lever at that point.

Flashy sells.

 

[jason]

So you're suggesting that, although using the slide stop is faster, you prefer not to use it because it is less reliable. So you'd put reliability over speed in this case. Your example illustrates this concept pretty well. It would put you in the "caveman" camp.

I believe the "athlete" would argue that if hitting the slide stop was ingrained into your training, hitting it would be no less reliable, and still faster. Or that if such an action failed, you could rely on several other techniques that you had trained on.

To illustrate the second half of your post, I'll direct you to this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJFVmO_OsVs

When the slide fails to go into battery, it looks like he "slaps" it with an open palm. Not quite the hand-over-slide follow up, but an alternate method that the shooter used immediately after the first method failed.

 

[Fourtrax]

So if I were to achieve A class in USPSA or the equivalent in IDPA, would I find that what Ive learned in other training venues is invalid? I am willing to test that if my travel schedule will permit me to attend enough matches.

For you higher-level competitors, how much time would I need to put in to get there? Coach has seen me shoot. Maybe I can take a couple of his comp classes so he can tell me how big a gap I have to close? I wonder if I can make A class within the 2014 shooting season (assuming USPSA has a season.)

Took me 7 years to make A, CB45 did it in under 2, just depends how much time you can invest. I didn't start until my mid thirties and with a wife and kids it can be tough. Remember though, CB45 dedicated himself, I'm sure he will attest to the work he put in, he actually made Master too. A person could go to GM in a year on paper, that's been done by more than one or two guys.

I don't think you'd find what you learned invalid, I think, if you were honest, you'd find that you would have learned it anyway by just having fun and being a serious competitor. I'm not talking about the "river dance" stuff Rob posted, that's some life saving ninja stuff right there (sarcasm). I'm talking about learning to manage stress and firing at a speed and accuracy level far above anything you have probably done.


That at is all I have been saying. That, and I think the level of grand standing that surrounds the tactical training stuff is in a complete 180 degree opposite direction than the possibility of ever using the training or tactics.

But it again, that's just me. All of this is just my humble opinion.


As an aside: when I say higher level competitor, I'm not necessarily saying any specific class. I'm talking about a person that competes and competes a lot.

 

[Jackson]

What do you mean by GM in a year "on paper"? As opposed to what?

 

[Rob377]

What do you mean by GM in a year "on paper"? As opposed to what?

Without getting too far onto the weeds on the quirks of the otherwise good USPSA classifier system, a "paper GM" is a grandmaster that isn't going to be in the running to win a national or area level match.

 

[bwframe]

What do you mean by GM in a year "on paper"? As opposed to what?

Essentially, you are training to the test. The majority of classifiers (how your class is determined,) are shot from a box with little or no movement. Normal club matches have one classifier stage and 5ish other stages that incorporate more movement. In other words, your training focus is concentrated on shooting classifiers as perfectly as possible as opposed to winning matches which are more rounded in testing your abilities.

 

[CB45]

My range log can be found here: CB45 Range Diary - Page 14 - Range Diary - Brian Enos's Forums... Maku mozo!

In 2 yrs...
100+ pistol competitions
30,000+ rds down range

This year I logged into the gates at Atlanta Conservativion Club 187+ times...

 

[bwframe]

...This year I logged into the gates at Atlanta Conservativion Club 187+ times...

Still a week left. Is the range under water?

 

[Randy Harris]

Jackson, there are folks who will practice the qualifier over and over again until they can make master, yet will never win a match because they just learned to parrot the movements, not own the skills. They are "on paper" a master class shooter but only on ppaer. Put them on a stage they have never seen before and they shoot middle of the pack at best. We refer to them as Grandbaggers (as opposed to Sandbaggers who are good shooters who intentionally tank the qualifier to shoot in and have an excellent chance to win the lower classifications).

 

[Fourtrax]

Yep, the whole sandbagging/Grandbagging thing could be a whole other thread, probably is somewhere, lol.

Suffice to to say not a single person I've included on my gunfighter squad falls into either category. Every guy I listed has earned their class and is a threat to win most matches they enter.

Jackson
If you are serious about actually competing and live close to Peru, I have my own little range. I'd be more than willing to pour out 10+ years of competition gun handling on you. The last guy I helped went to Master and I'm not sure I'll ever beat him again, damn kids. Of course, he spent countless hours perfecting everything, so mostly it was him, not me. But, nevertheless, dialing things in correctly, beats trying to fix training scars down the road.

I wouldn't charge a dime either. I just love helping people who want to compete.

 

[churchmouse]

Yep, the whole sandbagging/Grandbagging thing could be a whole other thread, probably is somewhere, lol.

Suffice to to say not a single person I've included on my gunfighter squad falls into either category. Every guy I listed has earned their class and is a threat to win most matches they enter.

Jackson
If you are serious about actually competing and live close to Peru, I have my own little range. I'd be more than willing to pour out 10+ years of competition gun handling on you. The last guy I helped went to Master and I'm not sure I'll ever beat him again, damn kids. Of course, he spent countless hours perfecting everything, so mostly it was him, not me. But, nevertheless, dialing things in correctly, beats trying to fix training scars down the road.

I wouldn't charge a dime either. I just love helping people who want to compete.

If the guy is serious and passes this up then I am speechless.

 

[cedartop]

.

My my point is, 99.99999999% of the people paying for this type of training have almost no chance of ever using it! none! zip! zilch.

..

BUREAU of JUSTICE STATISTICS, US DOJ

In 2011 there were approximately 5.8 million violent crimes in the U.S. That works out to 22.5 violent crimes per 1,000 people. To put it another way, that is 1 violent crime for every 44 persons in the U.S. in a single year.

What does a violent crime consist of for their report? Murder, Rape, Robbery, and Assault.

 

[bwframe]

...
Jackson
If you are serious about actually competing and live close to Peru, I have my own little range. I'd be more than willing to pour out 10+ years of competition gun handling on you. The last guy I helped went to Master and I'm not sure I'll ever beat him again, damn kids. Of course, he spent countless hours perfecting everything, so mostly it was him, not me. But, nevertheless, dialing things in correctly, beats trying to fix training scars down the road.

I wouldn't charge a dime either. I just love helping people who want to compete.

Be careful. Jackson might rub off on you just a bit too...

 

[churchmouse]

My son broke up a fight in front of Mijers (sp) today. They got into it right outside the front door and were bouncing off the front of the truck. He was going to run over them but thought better of it. Tried to talk them into moving away and they confronted him......dumb, very dumb.

My point, it can happen anywhere at any time to anyone.

 

[cedartop]

Like Cedartop mentions, some people actually DO have both perspectives. There are instructors out there who are master class shooters. But they are the exception not the norm.

.

Being an excellent shooter OR a solid tactician OR a solid fighter are not mutually exclusive. Sometimes scientists are good athletes too.....

Randy should know what he is talking about here. He is one of the most knowledgeable instructors I know. He has enough time on the door to know what a real hands on interpersonal conflict looks like. He has competed and won at high levels in varied shooting sports including GSSF, SASS, IDPA, and USPSA. I like to call him a Jack of all trades, master of many.

Randy I don't know your whole competition bio so please chime in if I am off with some of this.

 

[the1kidd03]

BUREAU of JUSTICE STATISTICS, US DOJ

In 2011 there were approximately 5.8 million violent crimes in the U.S. That works out to 22.5 violent crimes per 1,000 people. To put it another way, that is 1 violent crime for every 44 persons in the U.S. in a single year.

What does a violent crime consist of for their report? Murder, Rape, Robbery, and Assault.

You are also over 3x more likely to be a victim of a violent crime than of a house fire.

Yet, we teach kids in schools how to handle fires as early as 6 years old and there are likely VERY few homes without either an extinguisher or alarm.

 

[Fourtrax]

Randy should know what he is talking about here. He is one of the most knowledgeable instructors I know. He has enough time on the door to know what a real hands on interpersonal conflict looks like. He has competed and won at high levels in varied shooting sports including GSSF, SASS, IDPA, and USPSA. I like to call him a Jack of all trades, master of many.

Randy I don't know your whole competition bio so please chime in if I am off with some of this.

I understand that there are a select few who do both, excel at competitions and train, Vogel being preeminent. It is just my humble opinion that tactical type training once or twice a year doesn't get you nearly close to the gun handling skills and ability as turning yourself into a high level competitor. In a nutshell, that's it. Don't want to offend anyone. Another opinion I have is I believe that people outside of law enforcement or the military are fooling themselves about the benefits of the training. Any training has to be done thousands and thousands of times, rep after rep. Is that what most of these civilians do after an 8 hour tactical type class? They go home and spend 30 min, 40, 50, or an hour a day practicing what they learned? Then they spend each weekend shooting scenarios to reinforce all the training? If that is the case, kudos! I ain't talking to them. I haven't said one word to the person doing that. I've been kinda poking fun at the other type, the type that I guess makes up a large portion of the tactical world. The hanger on, the wannabe, the spouter of facts that has millions of rounds down range on Xbox. The type that doesn't compete because "that ipsy stuff will get you killed".

Despite what some might think, Ive learned a lot and have read every post. Plus I had a lot of fun on this thread. I really do appreciate the tolerance, lol. I doubt I'll ever take a training class though, I've had all the training I'm ever gonna pay for at this point. But, if you are a legit tactical trainer and have a resume to prove it, I'll swap you a competition type class for a basic self defense with a pistol class. But, since it's my home range (literally, my range at my house) I get to bring some of my homies, like Chad, Rob and Kurt.


I know it's just you and it would be 4 of us, but you are gonna have a blast, I guarantee it! Heck, I'll even grill lunch. We would shoot the crap out of any scenario we could come up with. It really would be a great day of fun. Heck, I might even eat some words, lol, just joking.

 

[Jackson]

Took me 7 years to make A, CB45 did it in under 2, just depends how much time you can invest. I didn't start until my mid thirties and with a wife and kids it can be tough. Remember though, CB45 dedicated himself, I'm sure he will attest to the work he put in, he actually made Master too. A person could go to GM in a year on paper, that's been done by more than one or two guys.

And taking a class or two wouldn't shorten that up for a new shooter? Maybe pack some of the highlights in to a few days of instruction?

I don't think you'd find what you learned invalid, I think, if you were honest, you'd find that you would have learned it anyway by just having fun and being a serious competitor. I'm not talking about the "river dance" stuff Rob posted, that's some life saving ninja stuff right there (sarcasm). I'm talking about learning to manage stress and firing at a speed and accuracy level far above anything you have probably done.

That's where I'm not so sure (regarding the emphasized portions, the rest is probably true). I have participated in some competitions and some training classes. I think the competition was great for gun handling and marksmanship, but not so stressful. I commonly hear on INGO that its the only or the best way to develop high-level gun handling and marksmanship. I tend to think it is mainly because of the hours of practice and number of rounds down range in practicing and not directly related to the competition. In other words, it could be achieved by putting in the work without competing. Competitors just tend to practice more. There were quite a few other skills and topics covered in the training classes I attended which didn't come up in competition. Were they all necessary? I guess that depends on what you think is necessary. Apparently you wouldn't think so. :-) I am very confident however, that the practice and shooting volume would do great things for my speed and accuracy.

Jackson
If you are serious about actually competing and live close to Peru, I have my own little range. I'd be more than willing to pour out 10+ years of competition gun handling on you. The last guy I helped went to Master and I'm not sure I'll ever beat him again, damn kids. Of course, he spent countless hours perfecting everything, so mostly it was him, not me. But, nevertheless, dialing things in correctly, beats trying to fix training scars down the road.

I wouldn't charge a dime either. I just love helping people who want to compete.

I am only in Indiana part-time since I relocated out of state for work. When I am here I am a couple hours away from Peru. That being said, if I can find the time, I'll do it. I'm sure my gun handling could use some refinement. I am not necessarily interested in competition for the sake of competing. I'm mainly just interested in building skills, and I figure it is also the best way to have an informed opinion in these conversations. For some background, I've done a few USPSA matches, some Instructional Leagues with Coach, and some Friday Night Steels mostly just for fun. It would be interesting to see if going from unclassified non-competitor to well-classfied compeition shooter brings some enlightenment about my trianing choices. I should be in town until January 5th. I could probably make it happen during either weekend between now and then if you really want. After that, it will be more difficult to schedule.

I doubt I could fit 50 competitions a year in to my schedule due to work travel and other things. So I may never achieve the level necessary for enlightenment. :-P

If the guy is serious and passes this up then I am speechless.

I'll do what I can. I'm not sure deciding not to go learn from a random guy on the internet would be that big a deal. But I don't want to leave you speachless. :-)

Be careful. Jackson might rub off on you just a bit too...

I don't know about that. I doubt I know anything a serious competitor like Fourtrax hasn't come across. I welcome the opportunity to learn though.

 

[ViperJock]

I understand that there are a select few who do both, excel at competitions and train, Vogel being preeminent. It is just my humble opinion that tactical type training once or twice a year doesn't get you nearly close to the gun handling skills and ability as turning yourself into a high level competitor. In a nutshell, that's it. Don't want to offend anyone. Another opinion I have is I believe that people outside of law enforcement or the military are fooling themselves about the benefits of the training. Any training has to be done thousands and thousands of times, rep after rep. Is that what most of these civilians do after an 8 hour tactical type class? They go home and spend 30 min, 40, 50, or an hour a day practicing what they learned? Then they spend each weekend shooting scenarios to reinforce all the training? If that is the case, kudos! I ain't talking to them. I haven't said one word to the person doing that. I've been kinda poking fun at the other type, the type that I guess makes up a large portion of the tactical world. The hanger on, the wannabe, the spouter of facts that has millions of rounds down range on Xbox. The type that doesn't compete because "that ipsy stuff will get you killed".

Despite what some might think, Ive learned a lot and have read every post. Plus I had a lot of fun on this thread. I really do appreciate the tolerance, lol. I doubt I'll ever take a training class though, I've had all the training I'm ever gonna pay for at this point. But, if you are a legit tactical trainer and have a resume to prove it, I'll swap you a competition type class for a basic self defense with a pistol class. But, since it's my home range (literally, my range at my house) I get to bring some of my homies, like Chad, Rob and Kurt.


I know it's just you and it would be 4 of us, but you are gonna have a blast, I guarantee it! Heck, I'll even grill lunch. We would shoot the crap out of any scenario we could come up with. It really would be a great day of fun. Heck, I might even eat some words, lol, just joking.

The major problem with your argument is that you assume if joe gunguy takes tactical classes he will only periodically practice but if he does competitions he will somehow practice non stop and become a grandmaster ninja. The reality is the guy who is motivated enough to become a GM will practice more than two weekends a year if he goes the tactical route. You are comparing apples and oranges.