Traffic stop, officer confiscated my firearms.

[Bill of Rights]

TTravis:

Rather than fight the ticket, I'd suggest that you pay it. Rather than argue the officer's reasoning, I would further suggest that you contact him through his department and invite him to lunch (your treat).

Make sure you thank him for cutting you a break, but at the same time, ask him for his thoughts on Washington v. Indiana. He may give you insight, probably in re:
IC 35-47-4-1
Delivery of deadly weapon to intoxicated person
Sec. 1. A person who sells, barters, gives, or delivers any deadly weapon to any person at the time in a state of intoxication, knowing him to be in a state of intoxication, or to any person who is in the habit of becoming intoxicated, and knowing him to be a person who is in the habit of becoming intoxicated, commits a Class B misdemeanor.

You're not bribing him by buying his lunch, you're just saying thanks and letting him know you appreciate it. He doesn't have to be told that this educational opportunity goes both directions.

Just my

Blessings,
Bill

 

[public servant]

Would allowing a minor without any type of license or permit to operate a motor vehicle with an intoxicated adult passenger fall under this?

IC 35-46-1-4
Neglect of a dependent; child selling
Sec. 4. (a) A person having the care of a dependent, whether assumed voluntarily or because of a legal obligation, who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) places the dependent in a situation that endangers the dependent's life or health;
(2) abandons or cruelly confines the dependent;
(3) deprives the dependent of necessary support; or
(4) deprives the dependent of education as required by law;
commits neglect of a dependent, a Class D felony.

I'll leave it to the INGO lawyers as to whether or not they think a prosecutor would file the charge or not.

 

[Denny347]

TTravis:

Rather than fight the ticket, I'd suggest that you pay it. Rather than argue the officer's reasoning, I would further suggest that you contact him through his department and invite him to lunch (your treat).

Make sure you thank him for cutting you a break, but at the same time, ask him for his thoughts on Washington v. Indiana. He may give you insight, probably in re:
IC 35-47-4-1
Delivery of deadly weapon to intoxicated person
Sec. 1. A person who sells, barters, gives, or delivers any deadly weapon to any person at the time in a state of intoxication, knowing him to be in a state of intoxication, or to any person who is in the habit of becoming intoxicated, and knowing him to be a person who is in the habit of becoming intoxicated, commits a Class B misdemeanor.

You're not bribing him by buying his lunch, you're just saying thanks and letting him know you appreciate it. He doesn't have to be told that this educational opportunity goes both directions.

Just my

Blessings,
Bill

Oh wow, I totally forgot about that one Bill. Thanks for the example.

 

[TTravis]

Would allowing a minor without any type of license or permit to operate a motor vehicle with an intoxicated adult passenger fall under this?

IC 35-46-1-4
Neglect of a dependent; child selling
Sec. 4. (a) A person having the care of a dependent, whether assumed voluntarily or because of a legal obligation, who knowingly or intentionally:
(1) places the dependent in a situation that endangers the dependent's life or health;
(2) abandons or cruelly confines the dependent;
(3) deprives the dependent of necessary support; or
(4) deprives the dependent of education as required by law;
commits neglect of a dependent, a Class D felony.

I'll leave it to the INGO lawyers as to whether or not they think a prosecutor would file the charge or not.

The officer did try to press this. He even told my son that I neglected him (which really got him PO). The officer told me that I could be charged for neglect and possibly do jail time. He said the same to my wife when she came to pick me up.

He asked my son what he does for a hobby and my son informed him that he races dirt bikes. He told he officer that he races a Honda 250. The officer asked if that was too big or powerful, he said "No, I race with all classes and I keep up pretty well", and "some of the guys I race against are police officers". Now if you ever watch one of those races, you would realise that the boy would have no trouble handling a car for the last mile home.

The officer then took his cell phone and claimed he was calling the county prosecute to talk about neglect charges. The officer went away from me, but closer to my son in the back of his car. I have a very serious suspicion that his call was entirely fake and meant to intimidate me. I wan wondering to myself: Since when does a small town patrolman call a county prosecutor on a Saturday night. at home, and wake him up to talk about a small time POS incident like this? Note, I thought it. I did not ask it. My son also, independently had the same impression that it was a fake call.

He did say I would be getting something in the mail. I guess the prosecutor simply decided to charge me with "allow unauth use of vehicle" which was the description on the order to appear. I later had that clarified to IC 9-24-18-4 Permitting unlawful use of vehicle

The motion for discovery I filed should shed light on whether that call was real or fake. If it was fake, I believe it could be seen as intimidation.

 

[lrahm]

The officer did try to press this. He even told my son that I neglected him (which really got him PO). The officer told me that I could be charged for neglect and possibly do jail time. He said the same to my wife when she came to pick me up.

He asked my son what he does for a hobby and my son informed him that he races dirt bikes. He told he officer that he races a Honda 250. The officer asked if that was too big or powerful, he said "No, I race with all classes and I keep up pretty well", and "some of the guys I race against are police officers". Now if you ever watch one of those races, you would realise that the boy would have no trouble handling a car for the last mile home.

The officer then took his cell phone and claimed he was calling the county prosecute to talk about neglect charges. The officer went away from me, but closer to my son in the back of his car. I have a very serious suspicion that his call was entirely fake and meant to intimidate me. I wan wondering to myself: Since when does a small town patrolman call a county prosecutor on a Saturday night. at home, and wake him up to talk about a small time POS incident like this? Note, I thought it. I did not ask it. My son also, independently had the same impression that it was a fake call.

He did say I would be getting something in the mail. I guess the prosecutor simply decided to charge me with "allow unauth use of vehicle" which was the description on the order to appear. I later had that clarified to IC 9-24-18-4 Permitting unlawful use of vehicle

The motion for discovery I filed should shed light on whether that call was real or fake. If it was fake, I believe it could be seen as intimidation.

At 15 years of age if he races a dirt bike, that's great. He still cannot drive on the streets without a license.

 

[Titanium_Frost]

At 15 years of age if he races a dirt bike, that's great. He still cannot drive on the streets without a license.

Never mind.

 

[TTravis]

At 15 years of age if he races a dirt bike, that's great. He still cannot drive on the streets without a license.

I agree that he can't legally drive. There is no question about that. Ability wise, he is ready. Maturity wise, he is ready. By some fluke the state decided to jack with the age requirement so all of a sudden, he can't start as young as his sisters did just a few years ago. That sucks for him, it really does, but it's the law, at least for the next three months until it changes back to where it was two years ago. I can assure all of you he will have that magical piece of paper that makes things right, and safe, and legal in only three more months and we will wait till that time. In three months, the age goes back to 15.0. I know I can't bend the rules without breaking them. He was caught in a wrinkle of time that denied him of his rightful privilege to learn to drive at his age. He is truly a good kid as evident by his grades and the way he lives his life. Please understand that I would never let him try anything if he was not ready, or it might be dangerous. He has a good teacher that will show him the ways of the road and the things that he needs to know that go far beyond what they teach in driving school. That is the experience that a good parent passes on to a child. He already has his first bad traffic stop experience under his belt.

When I was 14, my grandfather would let me drive on back roads on fishing trips. My grandmother worried about the two of us going off into the back country alone and what if something happened to him. She wanted me to have the ability to haul him back to civilization. We did not have cell phones like we do today. My son goes fishing alone with my elderly father. He has a cell phone, but still in the back country, a kid might have to rely on himself. The same goes for hunting trips. It is just one more tradition that this panzy ass society can't seem to deal with. No, it doesn't make it legal, but those of us fathers who are fortunate enough to have a close relationship with their teenage sons, that is just one of the things we do. The first parent of older kids I ever met and asked, that said he never let his kids do that, was the police officer himself! That is probably only because he is a cop. I have talked to a lot of dads around here about this. That still doesn't make it right according to the law, but it is not something to be ashamed of. Maybe city kids are different, but out here, country boys have country ways and that is just the way it is.

This started as a thread about the officer's right to take away my guns. Fortunately for me I had that magical piece of pink paper that kept me out of jail for having them. That piece of pink paper does not make me any more safe. I have to be safe on my own. I was angry and wanted to strike back at that officer in any legal way I could. You guys helped me see the light and I feel much better now.

Somehow, and I was the one asking the questions, this turned into a discussion where I gained a lot of ideas on how to fight that ticket in court. I guess that goes along with figuring out whether he was within his rights to take my guns away. Is it right for me to fight that ticket?...... It's my right to try and I don't see anyone here is faulting me for it. Being able to exchange questions with all of you here has helped me be more informed and prepared. If noting else, I have learned a lot since that day about all my constitutional rights and I am kind of glad I have them. I fought for those rights in the Amy, but I did not understand or appreciate them like I do now.

I've been picking apart the law and asking a lot of questions. There is nothing wrong with that. This discussion will be out there for a long time and hopefully somebody else can benefit from it. I appreciate all of you who contribute ideas and views and I thank all of you for your words.

 

[rnungester]

Not to throw salt on an old wound, but I would just cut my losses pay my fine, and thank god he didn't take me in to the intoxilizer(which he could have being your blew a .07). But i understand why you are upset about not having your weapons, but it could have been a lot worse.

 

[TTravis]

TTravis:
Make sure you thank him for cutting you a break, but at the same time, ask him for his thoughts on Washington v. Indiana. He may give you insight, probably in re:
IC 35-47-4-1

Thanks Bill. I enjoyed reading about that case and it is good to know. Since I have nothing to hide, I don't mind officers searching. I just get irritated when they don't even ask permission.

 

[TTravis]

Not to throw salt on an old wound, but I would just cut my losses pay my fine, and thank god he didn't take me in to the intoxilizer(which he could have being your blew a .07). But i understand why you are upset about not having your weapons, but it could have been a lot worse.

Or lower. I did the calculations at the DUI websites. My father and I split a 12 pack, of which I probably had 7 during the course of about 6 hours. I am 280 pounds so I can have a few more than most guys. Given the calculations and timing, I would bet it would have been lower. Especially after standing around for nearly an hour. I wasn't anywhere near buzzed and I was definitely not impaired. By my calculations I should have been .05. My rule is never take more than a 12pk out on the boat. When my father was younger, he would get the majority, but things change over time. Maybe I better cut back a little.

I know drinking and driving is bad and causes accidents and death. MADD and some of these other groups are just as passionate as some of these anti gun groups. They would like to see the limit lowered to where you can't have any drinks at all or zero tolerance. I heard the limit started out at 2.0 and eventually worked it's way down to .08. It seems I remember the magical number being .12 when I was growing up. I would like to read up on the history and reasoning.

 

[gunman41mag]

Because people like drinking alcohol, I drive a F-250 super cab, long bed

 

[lrahm]

Or lower. I did the calculations at the DUI websites. My father and I split a 12 pack, of which I probably had 7 during the course of about 6 hours. I am 280 pounds so I can have a few more than most guys. Given the calculations and timing, I would bet it would have been lower. Especially after standing around for nearly an hour. I wasn't anywhere near buzzed and I was definitely not impaired. By my calculations I should have been .05. My rule is never take more than a 12pk out on the boat. When my father was younger, he would get the majority, but things change over time. Maybe I better cut back a little.

I know drinking and driving is bad and causes accidents and death. MADD and some of these other groups are just as passionate as some of these anti gun groups. They would like to see the limit lowered to where you can't have any drinks at all or zero tolerance. I heard the limit started out at 2.0 and eventually worked it's way down to .08. It seems I remember the magical number being .12 when I was growing up. I would like to read up on the history and reasoning.

Food for thought, I have been an officer probably longer than most of you have been alive. I have only known the legal limit to be .10 % BAC. It is now at .08 %. This is a good thing. It burns off at .017%/hr. Acute alcoholic intoxication sets in at .50%. To test at .07 is still too much. Any time a person has a drink it impairs his ability to react to any situation. Anyone should think twice about driving when when they have been drinking. Your family and mine drives the same streets. I have seen too many fatalities and have made several family notifications. It gets real old, real quick.

 

[Birds Away]

Could be that the LEO wasn't angry that you weren't reacting to his words but that you weren't understanding the point he was trying to make. I don't want to tell anyone how to live but if it had been me I would say that I made several bad decisions that day and would feel very fortunate that I got to sleep in my own bed that night. I would definitely send him a Christmas card, take him to lunch or whatever. I think he cut you a huge break. Just my .

 

[gunman41mag]

I would like to know "WHO" kept the ammo that was in the guns

 

[jamil]

I would like to know "WHO" kept the ammo that was in the guns

I think out of the whole mess that would have been the only thing I think I would complain about. C'mon, give the man his ammo back.

 

[JBrockman]

OK! You lost me as a supporter when you admitted to drinking alcohol and getting into a motor vehicle, I will admit that the LEO had no right as far as we know to confiscate your firearms (with the info supplied) but it would depend on your driving at the time, I have cut people out of wrecks that swear up and down they only had 2 beers!

 

[TTravis]

OK! You lost me as a supporter when you admitted to drinking alcohol and getting into a motor vehicle, I will admit that the LEO had no right as far as we know to confiscate your firearms (with the info supplied) but it would depend on your driving at the time, I have cut people out of wrecks that swear up and down they only had 2 beers!

I have laid everything there is to know out there. I don't think there is any way to look at this in it's parts, alcohol, no license, guns being taken, and break it down. I gave the who picture, even though there are parts I am not proud of.

By your logic, a person cannot go to a restaurant and have a beer with his steak and be safe driving. Every veteran walking out of the American Legion, or VFW should be arrested for PI, if they have any alcohol in them at all, as soon as they walk out the door. I believe that the .08 limit is out there for a reason, and better thinkers than me set it at that level. All this stuff about "any alcohol at all is dangerous and illegal", I don't believe is a practical application of law enforcement. I've not had a drink (I only drink beer) since August 15 when I was fishing. I have only consumed about a case in total so far this year. It is not like I am in the habit of drinking and driving, but I do believe there has to be a reasonable limit other than 0.

I appreciate you LE guys speaking from experience. I know you have to deal with a lot of messy stuff. But I would like to know honestly, how many of these accidents are caused by people that are tested to be below the legal limit of .08 when alcohol is involved compared to those that are relay drunk. Some of the stuff that makes the news, the level is way high. I can't imagine what it would be like to even try to drive at 2.0 or above and those are the people need to go to jail. I appreciate that drugs and other things may cause impairment but I am talking only about alcohol here.

 

[Rookie]

I agree that he can't legally drive. There is no question about that. Ability wise, he is ready. Maturity wise, he is ready. By some fluke the state decided to jack with the age requirement so all of a sudden, he can't start as young as his sisters did just a few years ago. That sucks for him, it really does, but it's the law, at least for the next three months until it changes back to where it was two years ago. I can assure all of you he will have that magical piece of paper that makes things right, and safe, and legal in only three more months and we will wait till that time. In three months, the age goes back to 15.0. I know I can't bend the rules without breaking them. He was caught in a wrinkle of time that denied him of his rightful privilege to learn to drive at his age. He is truly a good kid as evident by his grades and the way he lives his life. Please understand that I would never let him try anything if he was not ready, or it might be dangerous. He has a good teacher that will show him the ways of the road and the things that he needs to know that go far beyond what they teach in driving school. That is the experience that a good parent passes on to a child. He already has his first bad traffic stop experience under his belt.

When I was 14, my grandfather would let me drive on back roads on fishing trips. My grandmother worried about the two of us going off into the back country alone and what if something happened to him. She wanted me to have the ability to haul him back to civilization. We did not have cell phones like we do today. My son goes fishing alone with my elderly father. He has a cell phone, but still in the back country, a kid might have to rely on himself. The same goes for hunting trips. It is just one more tradition that this panzy ass society can't seem to deal with. No, it doesn't make it legal, but those of us fathers who are fortunate enough to have a close relationship with their teenage sons, that is just one of the things we do. The first parent of older kids I ever met and asked, that said he never let his kids do that, was the police officer himself! That is probably only because he is a cop. I have talked to a lot of dads around here about this. That still doesn't make it right according to the law, but it is not something to be ashamed of. Maybe city kids are different, but out here, country boys have country ways and that is just the way it is.

This started as a thread about the officer's right to take away my guns. Fortunately for me I had that magical piece of pink paper that kept me out of jail for having them. That piece of pink paper does not make me any more safe. I have to be safe on my own. I was angry and wanted to strike back at that officer in any legal way I could. You guys helped me see the light and I feel much better now.

Somehow, and I was the one asking the questions, this turned into a discussion where I gained a lot of ideas on how to fight that ticket in court. I guess that goes along with figuring out whether he was within his rights to take my guns away. Is it right for me to fight that ticket?...... It's my right to try and I don't see anyone here is faulting me for it. Being able to exchange questions with all of you here has helped me be more informed and prepared. If noting else, I have learned a lot since that day about all my constitutional rights and I am kind of glad I have them. I fought for those rights in the Amy, but I did not understand or appreciate them like I do now.

I've been picking apart the law and asking a lot of questions. There is nothing wrong with that. This discussion will be out there for a long time and hopefully somebody else can benefit from it. I appreciate all of you who contribute ideas and views and I thank all of you for your words.

Ever stop to think that your actions are teaching your son to not accept responsibility? You screwed up, you got caught. Instead of taking your lumps, you are trying to find a technicality to get away with it. What will your son learn from this?

 

[TTravis]

Ever stop to think that your actions are teaching your son to not accept responsibility? You screwed up, you got caught. Instead of taking your lumps, you are trying to find a technicality to get away with it. What will your son learn from this?

My son gets to see the good and bad in me. I will be the first to admit that I am not perfect. I would like for him to learn that he can and should stand up for his rights, which includes closely looking at the actual law and defending yourself in court.

 

[96firephoenix]

ok, IANAL, but this is how I see it:

You went out fishing and drinking with your father and son. I would not have taken more than a 6-pack along if my son was not legally allowed to drive.

You made the responsible choice not to drive after drinking. I applaud this choice, however, this was made at the expense of putting your son in a situation where he violated the law. I do not applaud that choice.

I see the issue as being whether or not he had PC to pull you over for your trailer lights being out. You have shown IC that might mean he did not, but the LEOs that have stated that your trailer would have needed brake lights have not posted the relative IC (unless I missed in the 12 pages). Solely based on that, I think you should not have been pulled over for the trailer lights.