To Mask or Not to Mask?

[foszoe]

Or two options that failed to address the problem at hand....

I agree labeling fails to address much of anything, but admitting that does show signs of great character. Kudos!

 

[SheepDog4Life]

What about the second question I asked?

Are you saying asymptomatic spread is common? There are many studies indicating that is rare. Very rare.

Or are you doubting pre-symptom spread? Contact tracing has shown this to be a thing... most contagious 2 days before to 5 days after symptom onset.

I personally know 6 people who caught this from one individual (a DJ) who did not know he was positive and was not "sick" at the time... his symptoms started about 24 hours later. The other 6 developed symptoms 5-6 days after contact (requesting songs) with him.

 

[qwerty]

Are you saying asymptomatic spread is common? There are many studies indicating that is rare. Very rare.

Or are you doubting pre-symptom spread? Contact tracing has shown this to be a thing... most contagious 2 days before to 5 days after symptom onset.

I personally know 6 people who caught this from one individual (a DJ) who did not know he was positive and was not "sick" at the time... his symptoms started about 24 hours later. The other 6 developed symptoms 5-6 days after contact (requesting songs) with him.

There have been many others who live in the same household where a spouse got it and the other never did, some on this forum have personally experienced the same.

 

[buckwacker]

Are you saying asymptomatic spread is common? There are many studies indicating that is rare. Very rare.

Or are you doubting pre-symptom spread? Contact tracing has shown this to be a thing... most contagious 2 days before to 5 days after symptom onset.

I personally know 6 people who caught this from one individual (a DJ) who did not know he was positive and was not "sick" at the time... his symptoms started about 24 hours later. The other 6 developed symptoms 5-6 days after contact (requesting songs) with him.

I'm not saying I believe anything. I'm asking questions about claims you're making.

You claimed that you know that presymtomatic spread is a thing. I asked how you know this. Just because it happens in a few instances doesn't mean it's a significant mode of transmission. I specifically asked if we know what percentage of traced contacts with presymtomatic people result in transmission.

 

[snapping turtle]

Daughter tested positive from a school activity/overnight movie night non school.. I mean who really knows. could have been anyone anywhere.

The person she was with and around the whole time did not test positive. She slept in same room with her over the weekend with the individual whose father tested positive before elective surgery. (Non systematic) She got it and the mans daughter got it. the other who was with her the whole weekend did not.

We had her at home from her test result isolated to her room and bathroom.

None of us has tested positive. we did not mask up in the house. Our house is forced gas heating. Cost me 10 working days. Cost her Christmas with the family. She had a 99.7 fever one day, some coughing, some sniffles, a slight sore throat and no smell and off taste.
Masks I wear them out when required.
Most of us here look better with the masks on than with them off.

 

[jamil]

Imma pull a Josh morality shame here. If presymptomatic people don't spread covid, then we have a bunch of headached, stuffy nose, achy body, non-tasting, non-smelling symptomatic cocksuckers running around spreading their misery onto other people. I mean. Ya kinda know if you have symptoms. My money is on a presymptomatic person being able to spread it.

 

[Mr. Habib]

Two observations. One, my employer now mandates weekly testing. If I were to test positive, I would be put on Covid leave for 10 days. After 10 days symptom free I would be allowed to return to work. I would also be excused from weekly testing for 90 days because according to them, and other medical professionals I have spoken with, I would continue to test positive for that long. That strongly implies that asymptomatic spread is a joke. How else would they allow me into the building knowing that I will test positive?

Observation number two. My mother is in a long term care facility. She tested positive about a week before Christmas. We have not been allowed inside the facility since March due to Covid restrictions. I received a call on 23 Dec that we could now visit her in the Covid isolation ward because they are allowing "end of life" visits. Even though I am wearing an N95 mask with a 3 ply surgical mask and full face shield over that, plus full gowning and 2 pair of gloves my employer considers me to be exposed and I am now on mandatory Covid leave for at least 10 days and will need 2 negative tests before I am allowed back into the building. If that level of PPE is insufficient to adequately protect me from exposure, then how are any of the masks commonly worn in public protecting anyone?

 

[Mr. Habib]

Question for the N95 proponents. Are you having them properly fit tested each time you put one on? If not, then it is likely no more effective then no mask at all.

 

[nonobaddog]

I personally know 6 people who caught this from one individual (a DJ) who did not know he was positive and was not "sick" at the time... his symptoms started about 24 hours later. The other 6 developed symptoms 5-6 days after contact (requesting songs) with him.

Do they know if he was sneezing and coughing into their open mouths or was it more like normal breathing too close together?

 

[BugI02]

There have been many others who live in the same household where a spouse got it and the other never did, some on this forum have personally experienced the same.

The one rigorous study on this that I saw, IIRC, found that only 53% of people who lived with a symptomatic who tested positive contracted WuVid themselves.

This contributes to my 'belief' (for jamil) that much of recommended behavior for WuVid is like Climate Change - people have a theory which cannot be supported by data but because they are true believers they recommend behavior changes that they like and make them feel good, despite being unable to prove (by using their models to make short term predictions and then testing them against real world events). And when those interventions don't pan out, they never rethink their beliefs, they just seek to pile further unsupported interventions on top of those already in place

Thus, the idea that naturally aquired immunity isn't good enough and you'll still be expected to take the vaccine, even if you've already had it and recovered, as well as the idea that we need to keep wearing those masks even after taking the vaccine until everybody is vaccinated. No mention of what happens if they decide everybody needs an annual shot like influenza and they just start over again, probably want us to wear masks forever.

It is long past time to say enough. I'm fine with social distancing, but if someone thinks they can make me wear a mask when I choose not to, bring your A game

 

[CampingJosh]

That's kind of a distinction without a difference. There are a couple main beliefs common to that side of the divide, either of which fits the thing I'm saying. 1) People don't believe that mask work, and/or, 2) people don't believe the virus is any worse than the flu. Either of those are matters of belief, where if they believed the same as you, I'm pretty sure they might have a view of masks closer to yours.


It's still an issue of belief. You believe masks are more effective than the people you're morality shaming. Despite the studies suggesting otherwise, people still don't think they work, and that's not because they're idiots. Lots of smart people believe things that are counter to the evidence. Belief has nothing to do with intelligence or morals. The people who think masks don't work don't trust the people who claim they do. A fundamental factor in any belief is trusting the information that led you to the belief.


Ya. Belief does make something an issue of morality or not. Unknowingly making a situation worse is simply a bad outcome, but it's not immoral. Knowingly making a situation worse is immoral. Well, unless the person arrived at his or her ignorance negligently. For example, you gotta do something with all the sick covid people, so rather than consult with experts and try to figure out the least harmful course of action, WHICH IS CAN BE NOT DOING ANYTHING, you shove them in nursing homes. And then covid spreads to other residents and they all die. That would be immoral.

But, if you really believe wearing masks won't do anything to stop covid, and/or you believe that covid really isn't any worse than the flu, and so you don't wear masks and you don't really do much in the way of social distancing, and then that causes other people to become infected and have a bad outcome, yeah, that's a bad outcome. It's not immoral. And it's not for the lack of intelligence, or effort in trying to figure out what's right. It's belief, and that's predicated on trust in sources.

I don't think that people who have a different belief about the virus and about masks, have not arrived at their present state from immoral motives. At least not any less moral than you. They've arrived at the place they are, partly because of information bubbles, and temperament, neither of which involve morality.

So what I'm telling you, you're only going to make enemies by insisting that they're all behaving immorally. I don't know why you're so fixated on it being a moral issue. I mean. Isn't it a relief that they're all not sociopaths?

People are responsible for their holding onto faulty beliefs.

There was a time when bacteria were unknown. A surgeon who couldn't have known his dirty hands caused harm to patients had no fault. A surgeon who operated today without washing his hands, even if he believes germs aren't real, would be acting immorally. He should have updated his beliefs to better match the evidence.

If the only standard for moral action is the person's own belief--with no room to judge the validity of the belief--then morality as a concept can't exist. After all, the worst despots in history acted on their beliefs.

 

[qwerty]

Wear you mask! And no wire hangers!

Wickenburg mother charged with abusing her children over masks

The next court appearance for Sarah Michelle Boone is scheduled for Jan. 6.

www.azcentral.com

 

[foszoe]

Just a bunch of allegations.

 

[SheepDog4Life]

Do they know if he was sneezing and coughing into their open mouths or was it more like normal breathing too close together?

I interacted with him multiple times at the reception, masked, he was not coughing/sneezing. The 6 who caught it "lost" their masks as the night went on and the drinks flowed... requested songs unmasked. This was Saturday night.

He (DJ) started getting symptoms Sunday night, tested Monday or Tuesday. When his result came back positive on Thursday, he called the bride/groom insinuating that he caught it at their reception. They let him know that they, and several others, had just started getting symptoms that day or the day before (5-6 days post contact) and were either awaiting their results or in the process of getting tested.

Only then did it dawn on him that he (unknowingly) brought it to the reception.

FWIW, no one who interacted with him masked, caught it, only those who did so without a mask. I talked to him at length about microphone logistics for speeches, requested several songs, etc. All masked.

Bride and groom let all in attendance know... we quarantined, ordered groceries InstaCart, etc until our tests came back negative. Most others I know of (my side of the family) did the same.

Everyone I know who or know of who has had this with "full-on" flu-like symptoms has lost their sense of smell and taste for at least the better part of a week. This is full-on NO smell and either no taste, or only one odd taste sensation, which might be mouth taste, not tongue, but it is unmistakable. Including wife's co-workers, that number approaches 3 dozen.

 

[Grelber]

Had my annual physical Monday, asked my Dr. ( GP with about 20 - 25 years experience) if he knew of any scientific study that demonstrated that the cheap masks we wear were of any benefit for Covid-19.
He ramped up a bit, talked about all of the diseases that he had seen without mask mandates and used the words "political bull ****" and "F#$&ing Fauci"

 

[SheepDog4Life]

There have been many others who live in the same household where a spouse got it and the other never did, some on this forum have personally experienced the same.

Yup, I know 3 IRL with the same experience - spouses who never got it even though they slept together pre-symptom.

Also, know a household of 4 that all 3 of the others got it from one of them - daughter returned from college on break.

Also know 6 who got it from a pre-symptomatic DJ in the time it took to request a song.

None of the above mean the others cannot happen and does happen.

Contact tracing (backwards) that is able to determine who/when/where the person got it has established that 2 days pre-symptom to 5 days post is when the vast majority occur... it can happen outside that range, but is uncommon or rare.

 

[paintman]

I commented a week or so ago about me and 5 other guys going to Fort Wayne together to pick up trucks. One was positive and got sick that night and is still sick. A couple of us had some symptoms of covid and each one of us was tested. One guy ended up having strep, one tested negative twice and told it’s just a cold and I tested negative and was told it seemed more like allergies and was told to take mucinex, allergy medicine and nasal spray at the same time. My symptoms were gone the next morning.
so 6 guys in the same truck for two hours and one was positive. But none of the rest of us got it. No masks were worn.

 

[IndyDave1776]

Imma pull a Josh morality shame here. If presymptomatic people don't spread covid, then we have a bunch of headached, stuffy nose, achy body, non-tasting, non-smelling symptomatic cocksuckers running around spreading their misery onto other people. I mean. Ya kinda know if you have symptoms. My money is on a presymptomatic person being able to spread it.

Just for fun, what do you say to the person who feels like this 24/7/365 and did long before COVID?

 

[ditcherman]

I interacted with him multiple times at the reception, masked, he was not coughing/sneezing. The 6 who caught it "lost" their masks as the night went on and the drinks flowed... requested songs unmasked. This was Saturday night.

He (DJ) started getting symptoms Sunday night, tested Monday or Tuesday. When his result came back positive on Thursday, he called the bride/groom insinuating that he caught it at their reception. They let him know that they, and several others, had just started getting symptoms that day or the day before (5-6 days post contact) and were either awaiting their results or in the process of getting tested.

Only then did it dawn on him that he (unknowingly) brought it to the reception.

FWIW, no one who interacted with him masked, caught it, only those who did so without a mask. I talked to him at length about microphone logistics for speeches, requested several songs, etc. All masked.

Bride and groom let all in attendance know... we quarantined, ordered groceries InstaCart, etc until our tests came back negative. Most others I know of (my side of the family) did the same.

Everyone I know who or know of who has had this with "full-on" flu-like symptoms has lost their sense of smell and taste for at least the better part of a week. This is full-on NO smell and either no taste, or only one odd taste sensation, which might be mouth taste, not tongue, but it is unmistakable. Including wife's co-workers, that number approaches 3 dozen.

Were you wearing a cloth, surgical, or n95 type?
I know none of this is hard evidence, but I also ‘believe’ (paging jamil) we are being lied to/mislead by our ‘leaders’ in multiple directions and since I am free to base my beliefs off of whatever I choose, I choose this kind of evidence.

It’s funny (maybe depressing) watching these arguments mostly from the sidelines and seeing people use such faulty logic to support what they only want to be the truth.

 

[nonobaddog]

I interacted with him multiple times at the reception, masked, he was not coughing/sneezing. The 6 who caught it "lost" their masks as the night went on and the drinks flowed... requested songs unmasked. This was Saturday night.

He (DJ) started getting symptoms Sunday night, tested Monday or Tuesday. When his result came back positive on Thursday, he called the bride/groom insinuating that he caught it at their reception. They let him know that they, and several others, had just started getting symptoms that day or the day before (5-6 days post contact) and were either awaiting their results or in the process of getting tested.

Only then did it dawn on him that he (unknowingly) brought it to the reception.

FWIW, no one who interacted with him masked, caught it, only those who did so without a mask. I talked to him at length about microphone logistics for speeches, requested several songs, etc. All masked.

Bride and groom let all in attendance know... we quarantined, ordered groceries InstaCart, etc until our tests came back negative. Most others I know of (my side of the family) did the same.

Everyone I know who or know of who has had this with "full-on" flu-like symptoms has lost their sense of smell and taste for at least the better part of a week. This is full-on NO smell and either no taste, or only one odd taste sensation, which might be mouth taste, not tongue, but it is unmistakable. Including wife's co-workers, that number approaches 3 dozen.

So was the DJ wearing a mask at all, part time, full time?