thinking about reloading

[Broom_jm]

I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. Frankly, if someone can be trusted to pay attention to the details of gun ownership, care and operation, I feel they can be trusted to reload safe, effective ammunition. I understand that not everyone is well-suited to do so, but many of the comments about the capabilities of individuals smack of elitism, to me.

Our nation should be about individual freedoms, liberties and empowerment. Far be it from me to question someone else's ability to perform a task that is relatively simple and straight-forward, like reloading. It is not that reloading is difficult; it is that the consequences are potentially dire, if a mistake is made. The same can be said of riding a motorcycle. I am not so presumptuous as to decide who can do THAT, either. In fact, I'd rather see an idiot reloading than an idiot firing a gun. If someone is competent enough to be entrusted with one responsibility, the other is within their grasp.

 

[alexanjl12]

I would suggest going with the Lee turret press. You can set all your dies and leave them there. You can load one complete round at a time, which discourages any mistakes and provides a level of comfort any newbie may need. It also provides speed! Once you get the hang of it, you can comfortably load 20 rounds in five minutes. That means, you can load 100 rounds in less than 30 minutes, right before you head to the range. This option provides you with a proven system, safety, and you can go as slow or as fast as you desire.

I cant comment on a Lee because I have never owned one. I can tell you that a single stage makes understanding each step in the reloading process easier. I only use my single stage for precision, the Dillon gets the majority of the workload.

I also vote for starting out on the Lee Turret Press. Its a great press!!! And i have seen several posts saying you should start out with a single stage to get the hang of things. Well that's just another +1 for the lee turret. If you take out the indexing rod, it is a single stage press

Once you get the hang of things, you can put the rod back in and your back to turret mode

 

[Skip]

I have never met Andrew, but have heard nothing but good things about him. It is not hard for me to visualize that the time/money spent on taking his class could very easily repay itself many times over. Looking back thru the threads and seeing where someone is thinking about "upgrading", IMO, just illustrate this point.

First off, I will whole heartedly agree with the highlighted statement. Stop trying to turn this into a personality fight. The guy is a first rate, master reloader. NO ONE IS SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT!

What both Broom and I are trying to get folks to realize is that they can be empowered. They have some skills and can build on them to delve into reloading too. It just ain't that tough and you, me, Broom and a whole host of OLD TIMERS, taught themselves and we, us, Americans, have bought into the foolishness that we, us, Americans, are too stupid or can't learn to pay attention to detail, or whatever. I AM STANDING UP YELLING THAT "YES, WE CAN!" (No affilitation with the famous statement going around now! )

It has nothing to do with personalities and everything to do with caving into doubt without even trying! Because it is such a task that should be passed on, we, us, Americans, reloading/handloaders, have to get off of our proverbial fannies and get out there and help set up some folks. Buy some equipment to give away to help someone wanting to start. I mean, GET SERIOUS about our hobby. Put more than words out there, couple it with shoe leather! (This gets my blood boiling!)

Case in point: I have a friend, yeah, surprising to a lot of you, I know, that was shooting in USPSA competiton and was using factory ammo. He had had a Dillon XL650, it sat in the box for several years while he kept shooting factory ammo, hundreds or rounds every week. Then, he finally sold it. This was before I could get him to let me come over and help set him up. Well, he finally figured out that he could reload cheaper, DUH! He bought another XL650, and I went over to help set him up. All of two hours and he was cranking out good, competition grade ammo, lots of them. Several weekends later, he shot against some sponsored shooters. His ammo makes 172PF, just to be sure, and he beat all of them but still came in second or third. Didn't matter to him, he had at least beat them!

And all I asked for was some of the prize money! (There was none!)

Then there is my son. I gave him a Square Deal B, 2 caliber changes, casting equipment and a ton of help to get set up. One of my son in laws, same exact thing. Gave them a Square Deal B, all the fixings along with scales and everything. Manuals and all.

THAT is how this should be done. If everyone started just one in our hobby, just one...............Think about it.

As for upgrading, nope, never done that. I bought exactly what I wanted, when I wanted it. I did the due diligence and got just what I wanted at the time. Now, I have quite a reloading room. It is a mess right now, not paying attention to detail, I guess!
But it has the exact equipment in it that I want in it and I still have most if not all of what I started with.

Lee Classic Cast Turret Press (Wife bought it for me, I love her! and one of my 3 Square Deal Bs:

Dillon XL650 bought used off of ebay BUT came from Kempf as a trade in or consignment: (A guy brought it in not being able to get it running, got a Lee Turret Press and is as happy as I am!) EDIT: I had it mounted and running within the hour after getting it home.

Dillon RL450B with primer and powder measure upgrade:

Last but not least, my first NEW Dillon I had ever, probably will ever, buy, XL650:

Take a class. No biggy. Not the issue. BUT DON'T EVER BELIEVE THE DRIVEL THAT YOU CANNOT TEACH YOURSELF A BUNCH OF STUFF!

If you apply yourself, you can do much, much, more than you give yourself credit for. Seriously.................Maybe not everyone will agree with that, there are things I cannot do, and most of them have been done for me. Since the forum takes a dim view of "preaching", I will leave that there ALTHOUGH, if you want to hear the "rest" of that story, feel free to PM me.................

 

[Skip]

but many of the comments about the capabilities of individuals smack of elitism, to me.

Amen, bro, amen.

 

[Skip]

I also vote for starting out on the Lee Turret Press. Its a great press!!! And i have seen several posts saying you should start out with a single stage to get the hang of things. Well that's just another +1 for the lee turret. If you take out the indexing rod, it is a single stage press

Once you get the hang of things, you can put the rod back in and your back to turret mode

I agree, 110%

 

[Broom_jm]

If it's not necessarily a bad idea, why say " don't listen to guys " who advise to take advantage of a class ? Especially since it is so reasonably priced and includes follow up help/advice if needed... This doesn't even take into account having that "connection" for good hazmat buys and such in the future.

Since you asked...

I say don't listen to guys who doubt your capability to learn because I firmly believe MOST people are, in fact, capable of doing so. I'm no genius but I figgered it out. "We" is never greater than "I"...don't let anyone tell ya different. There is nothing wrong with individual competence, or the encouragement thereof.

Neither is there anything wrong with education, but when did structured classroom curriculum become necessary for every subject under the sun? I have not taken a gardening class, yet my strawberries are delectable. I eat farm fresh eggs from chickens I raised from day-old chicks. I even remodeled my bathroom. Never took a class for any of the above. BOOKS, my friend, are truly wondrous things.

 

[XtremeVel]

First off, I will whole heartedly agree with the highlighted statement. Stop trying to turn this into a personality fight. The guy is a first rate, master reloader. NO ONE IS SAYING ANYTHING ABOUT THAT!

I believe that was my first post in this thread. I was replying due to a specific comment made. I fail to see how you view that at trying to turn this into a personality fight.

What both Broom and I are trying to get folks to realize is that they can be empowered. They have some skills and can build on them to delve into reloading too. It just ain't that tough and you, me, Broom and a whole host of OLD TIMERS, taught themselves and we, us, Americans, have bought into the foolishness that we, us, Americans, are too stupid or can't learn to pay attention to detail, or whatever. I AM STANDING UP YELLING THAT "YES, WE CAN!" (No affilitation with the famous statement going around now! )

Sure they can ! Like you, I would also agree it's not difficult and I would struggle to say someone wasn't "capable" of doing it on their own. Too many have simply done it to prove otherwise. But I must ask why not a class ? Why not take advantage of such an opportunity ? To just prove one can do it without ? Why when such a reasonably priced course is offered ? Have you forgotten what it was like when you started ? Today, they are so many options. Hell, it seems like I'm always learning of another source for one thing or another that either would either serve me better or save money. A class has so many benefits to someone new to loading. It has NOTHING to do with whether a person is capable of learning on their own or not.


I recommend the class strongly, not because of "caving into doubt" but rather so many added benefits. Like you, I have helped many new to loading get started. I do wonder though if I did them an injustice. I can only show them what I have and what I'm familiar with. There are more options out there than what I can show them. A person seeing multiple options is invaluable. Also, I simply don't have access to the same deals that they can take advantage of thru the class. Heck, if I were to make the time to make the drive down south, what I would save in my first haz mat order would pay for the class.

THAT is how this should be done. If everyone started just one in our hobby, just one...............Think about it.

In many circumstances I would agree with that. An example when I wouldn't would be when I felt I would do them an injustice. If they have no idea what press to buy for example, and I can only show them a couple options, that's where the class would be of great benefit. I simply believe the more info the individual has ( especially by having hands on experience ) the better decision they can make. Hopefully this will keep the impulse buys and needing to upgrade to a minimum.

Take a class. No biggy. Not the issue. BUT DON'T EVER BELIEVE THE DRIVEL THAT YOU CANNOT TEACH YOURSELF A BUNCH OF STUFF!

If you apply yourself, you can do much, much, more than you give yourself credit for. Seriously.................Maybe not everyone will agree with that, there are things I cannot do, and most of them have been done for me. Since the forum takes a dim view of "preaching", I will leave that there ALTHOUGH, if you want to hear the "rest" of that story, feel free to PM me.................

The class is the issue. That's what we have been typing about. The remainder of what you said I would agree with, but again I would ask why ? Why not take advantage of the class. Why hamstring yourself from the start ? The class offers so much more than just learning to load.

 

[SSGSAD]

Don't listen to the guys who say you "need" to take a reloading course. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but there are certainly other ways of getting into it. The majority of guys never do take a course and we ain't blowed oursefs up YET!

I have a bunch of once-fired 357 brass. If you're interested, I'll trade you for the 44RM brass, although I'd want to clarify what you mean by "ss", first. You have made some good buying decisions and with a few more $$ will have everything you need; basically the right dies and components is all that's left.

Congratulations and be sure to ask if you have any questions.

I have been reloading for 30 + years, and I would LOVE to take Andrews class..... I am SELF-Taught..... I probably make a lot of mistakes.... but I have NEVER damaged a GUN, or ME, or anyone else ..... I am willing to show YOU, anything you need to know .... I am in Greenfield ...

 

[SSGSAD]

So I took the first step today...

Stopped in the local Goodwill to get a couple pairs of jeans for work, and while I was there figured I'd look threw the books to see if they had any books that pertained to shooting and/or reloading. Sure enough all the way at the bottom of the shelf there were 3 books.

-Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading "Rifle-Pistol Third Edition" (1989)
-Nosler Reloading Manual "Number Three" (1989)
-Speer Reloading Manual "Reloading Manual NO11 For Rifle & Pistol (1987)

Even though these are older and may be outdated could I still use these for reference and load data? In the Hornady book I even noticed some hand written noted under a few of the different calibers.

YES, the Speer # 10, is MY BIBLE .... the FIRST manual I ever bought, it is FULL of info.... READ it YOU will learn how RCBS started, in the garage... and now is a multi-million $ company .....

 

[XtremeVel]

Since you asked...

I say don't listen to guys who doubt your capability to learn because I firmly believe MOST people are, in fact, capable of doing so. I'm no genius but I figgered it out. "We" is never greater than "I"...don't let anyone tell ya different. There is nothing wrong with individual competence, or the encouragement thereof.

Neither is there anything wrong with education, but when did structured classroom curriculum become necessary for every subject under the sun? I have not taken a gardening class, yet my strawberries are delectable. I eat farm fresh eggs from chickens I raised from day-old chicks. I even remodeled my bathroom. Never took a class for any of the above. BOOKS, my friend, are truly wondrous things.

If I felt the recommendations for the class were made due to thinking someone was lacking the capability of learning, I would agree with you. Maybe I have a reading comprehension issue, but I surely didn't take "capability", or lack of as being the reason for recommending the class. At least that's not why I strongly recommend it.

Like I asked a couple posts above... Why not the class ? Why not throw all the options out there with hands on experience so the new loader can make a better decision ? Ironically, like you, I say give that new reloader the benefit of the doubt. Throw him to the wolves ! Show him many options, throw all possible at him so he can make the best decision possible.

 

[Skip]

Like you, I would also agree it's not difficult

Like you, I have helped many new to loading get started.

In many circumstances I would agree with that.

The remainder of what you said I would agree with,

One thing I would NEVER do, tell someone after I taught them all that I know about a subject, that I had done them a disservice or an injustice. I would explain to them though, that was just the beginning and they would have to teach themselves from there on out.

With so much that you are like me, even in the ole Semper Fi department, why are we arguing about a class?

You feel that the folks that you teach are "hampered" or "hindered" in some way? They have been done an injustice? Right? Well, I wouldn't feel right at all letting that go on anymore. Tell you what I will do. I'll send Andrew the class fee for you and one of the other people you actually help set up to reload in your names so that foolishness comes to a complete stop! No one should be done an injustice in such a dangerous manner. Don't teach anyone else to reload either until you take the class and then go back and "reteach" those that you messed up!

And you will notice that there is NO PURPLE in those comments, I am serious. Just say the word. I'll do that for the reloading/handloading hobby. I sure don't want folks that confess that they are inadequate out there teaching other folks that aren't able to learn on their own my hobby!

Gauntlet down..................................

 

[Broom_jm]

I have been reloading for 30 + years, and I would LOVE to take Andrews class..... I am SELF-Taught..... I probably make a lot of mistakes.... but I have NEVER damaged a GUN, or ME, or anyone else ..... I am willing to show YOU, anything you need to know .... I am in Greenfield ...

OK, deal! When I come across a reloading problem that I can't resolve by reading a book, magazine article, online reference or calling up a buddy...I'll let ya know. Until then, I'll go on being competent enough to figure things out for myself and confident enough to proceed with caution.

How can you "make a lot of mistakes" and not damage a gun or yourself? It ain't rocket surgery, for cryin' outside!

 

[Skip]

OK, deal! When I come across a reloading problem that I can't resolve by reading a book, magazine article, online reference or calling up a buddy...I'll let ya know. Until then, I'll go on being competent enough to figure things out for myself and confident enough to proceed with caution.

I wouldn't be sitting by my phone waiting on it to ring, SSGSAD!

 

[SSGSAD]

I wouldn't be sitting by my phone waiting on it to ring, SSGSAD!

Don't worry, I won't ..... I am just here to help ..... The worst I have done, is miss powder in a case, stuck a .44 mag., between the cylinder and the forcing cone... took a dowel, and pushed it out ... no damage to the S/A Ruger SBH, had it checked by a gunsmith to be SURE ..... shot it a lot, after that ...

 

[XtremeVel]

One thing I would NEVER do, tell someone after I taught them all that I know about a subject, that I had done them a disservice or an injustice. I would explain to them though, that was just the beginning and they would have to teach themselves from there on out.

With so much that you are like me, even in the ole Semper Fi department, why are we arguing about a class?

You feel that the folks that you teach are "hampered" or "hindered" in some way? They have been done an injustice? Right? Well, I wouldn't feel right at all letting that go on anymore. Tell you what I will do. I'll send Andrew the class fee for you and one of the other people you actually help set up to reload in your names so that foolishness comes to a complete stop! No one should be done an injustice in such a dangerous manner. Don't teach anyone else to reload either until you take the class and then go back and "reteach" those that you messed up!

And you will notice that there is NO PURPLE in those comments, I am serious. Just say the word. I'll do that for the reloading/handloading hobby. I sure don't want folks that confess that they are inadequate out there teaching other folks that aren't able to learn on their own my hobby!

Gauntlet down..................................

If there was an available option out there that could give a new reloader more options than I could to make his decision, and I didn't recommend it, I did that new reloader an injustice. It's rather simple, really.

The same with you.... If there was that same option out there and if you couldn't give that same new reloader as many options, you would be doing that same injustice.

Keep your money for the time being... You might convert me yet, but don't get your hopes up !

 

[Skip]

That would be why a disclaimer would have to be given, friend. "This ain't all you need to know, but it is enough to get you started!"

Still, all in all, the responsibility is up to the new loader. The old: "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them reloaders!" comes into play somewhere.

Even if they take Andrew's class, and, I have had at least one off forum converstaion with him, they aren't going to know all they need to know from then on either. Further ahead because of his vast knowledge? Absolutely. No problem with that. Same with the ones you teach, MUCH, MUCH, further ahead than what they would have been. Same with me, the ones I teach, I am just the kindergarten teacher and if they stay with it long enough, they will have full fledged professors, and HOPEFULLY, they will then become one on their own. Teaching others the BASICS, and starting an unquenchable thirst for more learning on the subject, that will be up to them to continue in. Just that simple of an analogy.

I am dead serious about the offer. IF YOU EVER want to take his class, you send me a pm with your name, and Andrew will have the money PRONTO. Semper Fi!

(This kind of nonesense almost got me into trouble once on another forum. I told one new loader if he got the Lee Classic Cast Turret Press and wasn't happy with it, I would buy it from him at what it cost him! I was just as serious then to though and thankfully, he was extatic with it! )

OOOORRRRRAAAAAHHHHHHH!

 

[Skip]

Don't worry, I won't ..... I am just here to help ..... The worst I have done, is miss powder in a case, stuck a .44 mag., between the cylinder and the forcing cone... took a dowel, and pushed it out ... no damage to the S/A Ruger SBH, had it checked by a gunsmith to be SURE ..... shot it a lot, after that ...

If someone tells you they have never stuck a bullet, factory or handload, I will show you someone that MAY (qualifier) not shoot or load much.

I have had the same thing happen. M629 Classic with a 5" barrel. Keith 250gr LSWC and a full charge of AA#9, standard primer. POP.............bullet ended up in the barrel, past the forcing cone, and all of the powder was up against the base of the bullet, unburnt. Since AA#9 does not require a magnum primer, I didn't use one. My bad. Why? Because the reason that it went POP, was that it was extremely cold that day, under 20*F. Now, I don't know for sure if that was all of the reason or not, but it sure had to have been a contributing factor. From then on, I use a magnum primer with all of my 44Mag loads. I may have to reduce some that are near maximum to keep them safe at hotter temperatures but they now all go bang!

Every one that shoots could have the same problem. Some knucklehead at an ammo factory that had a fight with his wife and got drunk and is worried about how this bill or that bill or how the baby is going to get a new pair of shoes, may have let a powder hopper go dry and not catch it. That one bullet may end up in your firearm. It can and while the odds are pretty good that it might not, when dealing with humans, anything bad is possible. All the teaching in the world won't help that or it would have worked in other areas over 2000 years ago!

FWIW

 

[Broom_jm]

If there was an available option out there that could give a new reloader more options than I could to make his decision, and I didn't recommend it, I did that new reloader an injustice. It's rather simple, really.

The same with you.... If there was that same option out there and if you couldn't give that same new reloader as many options, you would be doing that same injustice.

Keep your money for the time being... You might convert me yet, but don't get your hopes up !

For the record: I don't believe you've done anyone an injustice if you helped get them into reloading. There are ALWAYS other available options and nobody, not even a classroom instructor, is going to know all of them. That is not a sin of omission, it's just a fact of our rapidly changing world! I found out earlier today that Nosler is making a 200gr Accubond in 35 caliber. That does not mean I gave a friend bad advice on using the 180gr TTSX from Barnes, it just means that things sometimes change very quickly.

If you showed even one person how to follow the basic rules of reloading, such that they were able to overcome their innate fears and become more comfortable with the process, I fail to grasp how that could EVER be construed as an injustice. Any time we introduce someone to a new hobby or activity, we can only hope to spark their interest and get them started down the path. In other words, it's not your job to tell them every little nuance that might come into play while reloading. You should be proud of every person out there who reloads that you had a hand in getting started.

I've had a 44 bullet stuck in my Contender, as well as a case separation. I've crushed the shoulder on a couple handful of 44/40 cases. One time, I put together almost 100 30 Carbine cases with small PISTOL primers, instead of rifle. (Those all shot fine, btw... )

Humans make mistakes. Humans can also learn and become more adept at various activities, with practice and dedication. To even suggest that this capability is predicated on classroom instruction is absurd. When you consider that probably 90% of the reloaders out there never went to a class, and 99.9% of those haven't killed themselves with unsafe ammo, how can you even begin to assert a class is "necessary"? At best it's a confidence building activity. It's like saying the only way you can learn to swim is in a class. Show of hands: How many of you took a swimming class?

 

[Skip]

I found out earlier today that Nosler is making a 200gr Accubond in 35 caliber.

WHAT?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

I DIDN"T KNOW THAT!

I WANT SOME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will have to find out if the local gun store has them. THANKS!

 

[XtremeVel]

For the record: I don't believe you've done anyone an injustice if you helped get them into reloading. There are ALWAYS other available options and nobody, not even a classroom instructor, is going to know all of them. That is not a sin of omission, it's just a fact of our rapidly changing world! I found out earlier today that Nosler is making a 200gr Accubond in 35 caliber. That does not mean I gave a friend bad advice on using the 180gr TTSX from Barnes, it just means that things sometimes change very quickly.

If you showed even one person how to follow the basic rules of reloading, such that they were able to overcome their innate fears and become more comfortable with the process, I fail to grasp how that could EVER be construed as an injustice. Any time we introduce someone to a new hobby or activity, we can only hope to spark their interest and get them started down the path. In other words, it's not your job to tell them every little nuance that might come into play while reloading. You should be proud of every person out there who reloads that you had a hand in getting started.

I've had a 44 bullet stuck in my Contender, as well as a case separation. I've crushed the shoulder on a couple handful of 44/40 cases. One time, I put together almost 100 30 Carbine cases with small PISTOL primers, instead of rifle. (Those all shot fine, btw... )

Humans make mistakes. Humans can also learn and become more adept at various activities, with practice and dedication. To even suggest that this capability is predicated on classroom instruction is absurd. When you consider that probably 90% of the reloaders out there never went to a class, and 99.9% of those haven't killed themselves with unsafe ammo, how can you even begin to assert a class is "necessary"? At best it's a confidence building activity. It's like saying the only way you can learn to swim is in a class. Show of hands: How many of you took a swimming class?

First, while I appreciate the civil tone and comments above, it's not needed. I fully understand just how my injustices would compare to the contributions I have made helping others through the years and I live fine by it.

We are still on (2) different pages here though. Heck, I would even consider it an injustice to the individual if I recommended what direction to start ( equipment wise ) without knowing a few key facts about their desires and needs first... A good example would be the first post in this thread. There was simply too little info given for me to recommend a kit. Believe me, I was busting out at the seams to type out the Lee classic turret, but I refrained. Had I done that with the lack of info I felt was needed, I would of done that potential new reloader an injustice... Granted, a small one in comparison to potential contributions, but still an injustice non the less.

When I talk of doing an injustice, I consider aspects other than just available equipment. A couple examples would be what was offered in Dec... Free FFL transfers for the month. Also the potential of all the " group buys " that are available from that individual is another huge factor. I can not compete nor do I have any desire to compete with issue such as these. Saying that though, I would be selling the new reloader short if I did not strongly recommend him looking into making that acquaintance. A acquaintance that can be very valuable for years to come !