The 'won't back down' situation

[JosephR]

Are you willing to live with killing and unarmed man cause he was "high" or born retarded ?

I will do what is within my right if it is what is necessary to protect my life. Why is it so hard for people like you to accept that this may be necessary at some point? We are talking about situations where this is necessary. We do that often on this site. If you want to talk about situations where you can hug and kiss afterwards, start your own thread.

 

[2ADMNLOVER]

JosephR , it would seem from some of your posts that aggression is in your nature . Almost as if you cant wait for someone to try this scenario with you so you can finally get a chance to "legally" kill someone .

I'm not a lawyer or LEO are you ? , cause so far you've failed to mention your area of expertise . Until I see a post from someone in this state claiming to be either saying it's our right , I don't think it's wise to believe all that's been posted about your rights as you interpret them .

For the record , I'm not trying to shove my opinion down anyone's throat . It's just that quite a few folks here seemed quick to pull the gun and shoot as if that's the only option left , without consideration of what comes afterward .

I'm not trying to pick a fight or **** anyone off . Having been a soldier / medic , I want people to make sure deadly force is the last option .

I'd hate to hear of anyone on this forum finding out the hard way , loosing their freedom or families that they've gotten bad info on this matter .

 

[JosephR]

No I'm not looking for this to happen and how dare you accuse me of it? That's pretty assinine of you, you know?

I'm not a lawyer but my opinions are much closer to the law than yours. You seem to be fearful of exercising your rights.

I'll state this once again- the OP is asking how to react in a situation when you can LEGALLY DO SO. THEREFORE we are to presume you've already determined the person is a threat- the OP just wants to know how to proceed.

I'm sick of people like you muddying up a discussion about lawful use of force by injecting doubt and BS into the OP's question. He did NOT ask how you can tell if the person is a threat or when you know they are a threat or what is a threat- he said the person was a threat and asked which route is better- to draw or not to draw.

You are talking about NONE of this, only putting your personal agenda of "Don't shoot" into the mix.

I've read the opinions of those you WOULD believe countless times and I'm not going to bring them in here just to set you straight. It's YOUR job to find these things out yourself.

The information is out there if you'd look for and read it. It amazes me how many people aren't lazy enough to carry but are lazy enough to read.

 

[mettle]

This is my first response to this thread: I feel that if the person is 5+ feet away you can still turn and run, or back away fast. You want to survive and avoid an altercation, not 'draw' and possibly escalate something that could have been avoided by removing yourself.

It is about SURVIVAL. Plus, if you can avoid a trip to the courtroom you have that added bonus.

I think too many people feel they are prepared for a 'draw, determine and shoot' scenario and have falsely decieved themselves into believing this.

I will stand on the idea that: avoiding by running or leaving the scene (even if you 'look' cowardly/foolish) is 100+ times better than what you have suggested of taking 'action'.

 

[JosephR]

It's too bad that most of the time a situation can escalate to a screaming match from 5' away will NOT be in the middle of a field or parking lot. It will probably be in line at a store or gas station or restaurant or in a parking lot near your car.

You may HAVE to react. It's worth thinking about.

We are NOT talking about a situation of road rage where you can drive away- the OP wants to know what to do in a certain situation when he CAN'T avoid escalation- he's asking how to do it, not whether people think he should or not ya know?

There's a lot we can argue about but if we stick to the topic, there's much much less.

 

[Crystalship1]

JosephR , it would seem from some of your posts that aggression is in your nature . Almost as if you cant wait for someone to try this scenario with you so you can finally get a chance to "legally" kill someone .

I'm not a lawyer or LEO are you ? , cause so far you've failed to mention your area of expertise . Until I see a post from someone in this state claiming to be either saying it's our right , I don't think it's wise to believe all that's been posted about your rights as you interpret them .

For the record , I'm not trying to shove my opinion down anyone's throat . It's just that quite a few folks here seemed quick to pull the gun and shoot as if that's the only option left , without consideration of what comes afterward .

I'm not trying to pick a fight or **** anyone off . Having been a soldier / medic , I want people to make sure deadly force is the last option .

I'd hate to hear of anyone on this forum finding out the hard way , loosing their freedom or families that they've gotten bad info on this matter .

That is ayy over the top and IMHO, very bad form. Just because a man chooses to protect himself, his family, or his property with the tools that at at his disposal rather than relying on his perceived "whoop-ass looks and/or ability" is no indication that he's looking to kill someone. You're sounding more and more like a nut, BTW.

 

[mettle]

Understood. But really, how many of us have had many hours of force on force, reactionary force training and simulations/scenarios with live people?

I still stand on the premise; escape. Draw the firearm, and withdraw. You don't even have to sweep the person with the muzzle. Let them know it's there.

Since we have 'drawn'; I feel that retention position while in the discussion and warning (enough! get back!) stage is best. In this position you have the complimentary arm free to ward off an attempt to stike while your pistol is still a projectile weapon.

In a two hands 'traditional' grip you may not think fast enough to 'let go' and use other options before perforrating your attacker. B/c, let's face it, if the pistol is drawn and they are not shocked but angered; you WILL NOT stop them with 5 shots to the chest before they are upon you at 5 feet.

My answer to go along with the game is; drawn and holding retention, demand cease of action from the opponent and retreat. If no retreat, them prepare for a physical fight with your pistol in hand. You must be able to survive the initial attack while your rounds take effect on the opponents body.

It's too bad that most of the time a situation can escalate to a screaming match from 5' away will NOT be in the middle of a field or parking lot. It will probably be in line at a store or gas station or restaurant or in a parking lot near your car.

You may HAVE to react. It's worth thinking about.

We are NOT talking about a situation of road rage where you can drive away- the OP wants to know what to do in a certain situation when he CAN'T avoid escalation- he's asking how to do it, not whether people think he should or not ya know?

There's a lot we can argue about but if we stick to the topic, there's much much less.

 

[JosephR]

You're fine Mettle- you're answering the OP and being clear.

When that close, I'd draw and keep the pistol at my side while pointing forward- I can point shoot at 5'- that's no problem. I can also draw quickly from a holster and hit very accurately COM at 7 feet- I've tried it, it's pretty easy.

Crystalship- thanks for the backup and support. Those types of comments are very incendiary and insulting. They are comments a person can't really respond to without looking like one extreme or another- crazy or a sheep. It shows what level 2ADM has to stoop to in order to discuss something- a serious extreme. Serious extremes are a waste of breath in a real discussion. They are truths wrapped up in fantasy that have no place in a real debate or discussion. It's definitely a tactic you'd use to distract an opponent in a debate or argument if you are losing and have nothing else to do short of sticking your fingers in your ears and going

 

[Biggdogg]

It seems to me that this thread could pretty much be summed up with the old adage: "Plan for the worst and pray for the best."

Some already express some apparent apprehension about the whole "fight or flight" issue that's being discussed. IMHO, regardless of your opinion, thoughts, etc. towards the issue at hand; as long as you apply that mantra to YOUR situation, then you can't go wrong. There's always going to be someone that will side with you and your beliefs, and there will always be someone who won't.

 

[JosephR]

I mean, 5 feet away is close enough to where if you turn your back, his hands are around your throat before you take a step away, let alone run away and perhaps move fast enough to get away from him. At best, he's 5 feet away. Ask any NFL wide receiver- 5 feet behind you is WAY too close for any pursuer. They can take you down if they don't mind grabbing your legs and eating a heel or pavement.

You have no other choice and that's why the OP said 5 feet I'm guessing.

 

[Richard]

JosephR , it would seem from some of your posts that aggression is in your nature . Almost as if you cant wait for someone to try this scenario with you so you can finally get a chance to "legally" kill someone .

That comment was way over the line, you just earned yourself some negative rep bud.

Anyway check this "local to me" article from yesterday to see just how quickly someone "simply yelling at someone else" can turn into a life or death situation.

The Herald Bulletin - Traffic argument ends in gun being pointed

Published May 17, 2009 09:47 pm - ANDERSON — An Anderson motorist pulled a gun on a man in downtown Anderson after the man allegedly pulled a knife and tried to enter his truck Sunday afternoon.


Traffic argument ends in gun being pointed
Man says his truck was attacked by pedestrian with knife

ANDERSON — An Anderson motorist pulled a gun on a man in downtown Anderson after the man allegedly pulled a knife and tried to enter his truck.

Police were called to the intersection of Jackson and 12th streets around 4:45 p.m. Sunday and found Lester J. Hill engaged in a shouting match with the unidentified motorist. The Herald Bulletin does not typically print the names of victims.

The motorist, who spoke with The Herald Bulletin, said he was driving northbound on Jackson Street when a group of people crossed the road in front of his truck.

As he came to a stop to let them pass, the motorist said he said good morning to the group.

Hill allegedly approached the vehicle and began shouting at the driver, who shouted back.

“I’m not type to back away,” the motorist said after the incident.

As the two men argued, the motorist said Hill pulled a knife and began slicing the side of his truck and tried to open the doors to the truck.

The motorist then pulled a gun from his vehicle and pointed it at Hill. Witnesses called police to the scene and police initially held the motorist at gunpoint until he gave up his gun.

Police initially hand-cuffed the motorist and placed him in the back of a squad car while Hill watched, but the positions were soon reversed when police spoke with the motorist about the events.

Several scratch marks were visible on the driver’s side door of the motorist’s vehicle.

Hill was arrested on suspicion of recklessness, a Class D felony, and mischief, a Class A misdemeanor.

 

[bigg cheese]

This is my first response to this thread:

Are you sure? I could have sworn that you were on page 2.....

***click.... click.... scroll scroll scroll... Stagger, fall, crawl crawl, stagger......... click click***

Nope, you're right. First post for you

 

[JosephR]

I've already "been there, done that" in this situation anyway. I'm not going to rehash or repeat the whole story but basically a man climbed through my passenger window while i was stopped at a light. He was arguing and swearing at my friend and I yelled 7 times to "get the F out of my car" and each time placing my hand closer to my gun, then on my gun, then beginning to draw my gun with the 7th time having the gun far enough out of my holster that he could see the side of it- my hand was covering the grip.

Anyway, the light turned green and I hauled ass and he went flying and sommersaulting.

I didn't think of him as a huge threat because he "seemed" unarmed. Thinking about it now, I was within my right to tell him to GTFO and show him my pistol. He COULD have then produced a knife from his right side where I couldn't see (he was literally humping my door and his top half was completely inside my car) and he could have done some SERIOUS damage to me or my friend. I should have whacked him with the back of the pistol before taking off.

I don't know but THAT made me think about things like this. I don't come on here with an agenda or to brag about thinking I'm prepared to shoot OR bitch and whine about those who actually want to discuss this.

This type of scenario is now important to me. If you don't care about it then YOU can GTFO as it's what we're discussing. Go talk about crocheting in the break room if you so choose to.

It's too late to think about when it's happening. Hell, I just NOW realized had the guy had a knife, I'd have been F'd.

I get to rethink this whole thing yet AGAIN.

And FYI in case you don't even know, he forcibly entered my vehicle. I do believe that is grounds for lethal force.

ETA- thank you Richard.

 

[Alerion]

I'm probably coming into this discussion a little late to talk about the original post but I'd like to give my take on it. FWIW I'm not currently a LEO but I did used to play one in real life.

One of the big problems that I used to deal with as a LEO was that people didn't come with signs telling me who was the bad guy and who was the good guy so I only had what I could see and what people told me to go on. Also consider that most people "adjusted" their stories to favor their version of events. So, since I don't have the other side of the story, my arrest report would probably look something like what what I've posted at the end from the statement given. BTW, there would be an arrest under these circumstances. After that, it's up to the prosecutor to decide where it's going to go.

The guy has assaulted me, verbally, getting in my face in a threatening way, whatever. Not battery, but assault. He was standing 5+ feet away and I drew, not to fire but to diffuse.

I drew my weapon and told him not to move and gave him a warning. He said, "chill out, I'm not going to hurt you. I'm unarmed, I'm not going anything" and continued slowly advancing toward me. He had his arms extended, no weapon in sight.

My initial response was to shoot him.

The part of my report based on that statement;

Two subjects were involved in a verbal altercation.
Subject One (S-1) states that there was no physical contact between the two however he did feel that he was verbally "assaulted" by Subject Two (S-2).
S-1 states that he drew a firearm and aimed it at S -2.
S-1 states that S-2 responded by saying, ""Chill out, I'm not going to hurt you. I'm unarmed, I'm not going to do anything" while S-2 advanced toward S-1 from a distance of approximately 5 feet with his arms extended.
S-1 confirmed that S-2 did not display a weapon.
S-1 discharged his firearm into S-2.

This is even leaving out the part about advancing in a "slow, non threatening manner" since that statement completely kills the self-defense arguement. It still sounds pretty cold when it's boiled down to the basic facts. Plus, I think I heard some variation of "I had to shoot him because I was in fear of my life" in every shooting I ever worked where the shooter wasn't too wasted to lie.

 

[mettle]

Are you sure? I could have sworn that you were on page 2.....

***click.... click.... scroll scroll scroll... Stagger, fall, crawl crawl, stagger......... click click***

Nope, you're right. First post for you

confirmed! I had to wait until later in the thread to post my idiocy! It makes more impact that way!

 

[jmiller676]

I believe between pulling your gun and using it depends. 5' is way to close for anyone let alone me who is 5'-10" 125 lbs. a little on the small side. I would definitely have my hand on my gun and be warning him to STOP,BACK OFF GO AWAY as I was slowly moving backwards but making sure I keep my stance if he does lunge forward. I personally want to avoid the cops and court without a doubt but, also want to defend my life if it comes down to it. As I am backing away (I understand I have no duty to retreat but this is my choice) and he keeps approaching I draw my gun and continue to bark warnings one hand with the gun the other with my cell dialing 911 immediately and letting him know. ( I believe contacting the cops would be good because you would be the first to explain what the situation is before if/when anything would happen its like CYA) I would retreat a little faster and still give warnings. The absolute last resort would be to fire but if the previous steps did not work I would have no problem firing if he showed the same or an escalated state of aggression towards me.

 

[Richard]

This is even leaving out the part about advancing in a "slow, non threatening manner" since that statement completely kills the self-defense arguement.

I disagree, the victim would not be unreasonable in believing that the attacker (advancing on an armed victim) had intentions other than what the attacker had verbally stated his intentions to be, intentions which probably involved making a play for the victims weapon once the attacker felt he was close enough.

 

[Alerion]

As I am backing away (I understand I have no duty to retreat but this is my choice) and he keeps approaching I draw my gun and continue to bark warnings one hand with the gun the other with my cell dialing 911 immediately and letting him know. ( I believe contacting the cops would be good because you would be the first to explain what the situation is before if/when anything would happen its like CYA)

Actually, this is more than CYA. There're not many better witnesses than a police dispatcher with a recorded 911 call! I'd try to make sure I warned him at least once while I was on the phone and I'd probably hit the speakerphone button so the dispatcher could hear his responses as well.

 

[jmiller676]

Yep, that's what I would do. The call is going to be recorded it will most likely stand up in court at least it should! speakerphone would be great too. The BG knows you're on the phone and the dispatch can hear what both parties are saying.

 

[JosephR]

Enemy has assaulted you, whether verbally, getting in your face in a threatening way, whatever. Not battery, but assault. For the sake of the question, let's say that the threat was not immediate but imminent

Alerion- Did you also take statements from witnesses and put in your report that this assault occured?