The 'won't back down' situation

[Richard]

LOL for some odd reason circus theme music started playing in my head while reading all of those asinine responses.

Do du du do dut do dut do du do dut dodu, dut duda dut duda dut duda.

 

[kingnereli]

asinine - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

As long as we are talking about definitions here which recent post is most "resembling an ass?"


This one!

LOL for some odd reason circus theme music started playing in my head while reading all of those asinine responses.

Do du du do dut do dut do du do dut dodu, dut duda dut duda dut duda.

I can only take your recent ridiculous posts as admission that your argument doesn't hold water. I'm not sure why you can't just disagree without getting childish. The outcome of this scenario depends on the choice made. Different choices have different outcomes. If you are satisfied with the outcome of your choice then you don't have a problem. We could all do without the antics in what is supposed to be an adult discussion. These kinds of threads are important so we can formulate potential decisions for particular scenarios just in case. Defensive obduracy really detracts from that.

 

[kingnereli]

He knows where I was going with it .

Oh, I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

 

[MrBogok]

A defense atty. for him wont be necessary if he's dead. "Shoot to disable(Center mass) not to kill" thats the way I was taught to do it

 

[Joe Williams]

snip

Please don't respond with 'you should only draw to shoot' responses either.
snip

Why not? It's the correct response. Someone flapping their gums isn't reason to draw my firearm. Drawing your gun to "diffuse" a situation is just as likely, if not more so, to escalate it. You just became the aggressor.

If I'm drawing my gun, I'm planning on pulling the trigger because the threat is that extreme. If the bad guy runs or stops so much the better, otherwise the trigger is getting pulled. If the situation isn't that bad, there is no reason for the firearm to clear leather. Now, if I'm in a parking lot late at night and think I'm being followed and in danger, I may draw without letting the person I'm concerned about see... but I'm still drawing with intent to shoot if the situation goes as bad as I fear it may. Even then, I'm drawing with intent to fire, not to threaten. The fact that the gun may be reholstered without anyone but me knowing it was drawn doesn't change that.

Edit: Which I see I've already answered. Darned thread necromancy LOL.

 

[LPMan59]

another thread resurrection!

 

[MarkM]

What if there is more than one person one day after work my ex's boyfriend and his friend confronted me in the parking lot because she said that kept calling her which later in court my phone records proved differently but two large "gangsta" as they called themselves I wasn't sure if I could draw my p85 legally in public in broad day would it have been justified clearlt they weren't there to give me hugs

 

[indytechnerd]

What if there is more than one person one day after work my ex's boyfriend and his friend confronted me in the parking lot because she said that kept calling her which later in court my phone records proved differently but two large "gangsta" as they called themselves I wasn't sure if I could draw my p85 legally in public in broad day would it have been justified clearlt they weren't there to give me hugs

punctuation is your friend.

To the OP: Draw to end it, plain and simple.

... in a 'slow, non threatening manner'...

It looks like this. BG is advancing. If we've already determined that the person is a BG, then any advancement is a continuation of the threat. If I've reached back to draw, hand on my weapon, and he keeps walking towards me, he's not smart, but he is continuing to act in a threatening manner. If he STILL advances after I've drawn and presented him with the business end of my fo-tay, then all doubt is gone and things are not going to end well for him.

 

[k12lts]

What if there is more than one person one day after work my ex's boyfriend and his friend confronted me in the parking lot because she said that kept calling her which later in court my phone records proved differently but two large "gangsta" as they called themselves I wasn't sure if I could draw my p85 legally in public in broad day would it have been justified clearlt they weren't there to give me hugs

Wow, there's this thing called punctuation, use it.

No, you would not be justified. You can meet force with equal force. I'm sure there will be someone come along and say it's ok, but unless you want to spend $25,000 in legal fees to find out you need to keep the P85 in it's holster.

 

[LPMan59]

Wow, there's this thing called punctuation, use it.

No, you would not be justified. You can meet force with equal force. I'm sure there will be someone come along and say it's ok, but unless you want to spend $25,000 in legal fees to find out you need to keep the P85 in it's holster.

you dont have to wait for the force before drawing...only reasonable fear of that force. the last part of your statement is very very true though and is likely to be the case even if you did meet force with force.

 

[MarkM]

Ok, I'm sorry about the punctuation I should use it more. But in my defense I'm on a blackberry and when I'm typing, I don't really feel like holding down three buttuns at once. Ill be honest I have fat fingers and these buttons are tiny sorry to all who got confused reading my long sentence.

 

[SSGSAD]

I doubt I would unholster but I would certainly uncover my weapon & place my hand upon it, issuing the following commands loudly & clearly: "KEEP YOUR HANDS WHERE I CAN SEE THEM" & "STAY BACK".

Those commands are non-negotiable IMHO.

Yes, I agree !!!!!

 

[MarkM]

Ok, I'm sorry about the punctuation I should use it more. But in my defense I'm on a blackberry and when I'm typing, I don't really feel like holding down three buttuns at once. Ill be honest I have big fingers and these buttons are tiny sorry to all who got confused reading my long sentence. And more on topic of what the thread is about the two cornerd me next to my car and my gun was in the glove box. I was at the driver door with it open they were at the back of my car saying they were gonna stop me into the ground and kill me. I just asked if it would have been justified. This is not the place for an english lesson. I got on INGO to get away from the sh*t on HT, I thought this site was more mature

 

[TheCapulet]

Here's the thing about this entire situation (Aside from the fact that easter Sunday was almost a week ago, so all the resurrections are all used up)

In many martial arts, a practitioner is trained to extract himself from the situation. But not everyone uses their practiced art with total wisdom. In situations where the practitioner cant get away, he's trained to take a submissive stance, hands up at shoulder level, just over shoulder length apart. Any well trained practitioner in this stance in gun range of his opponent is lethal.

For instance, here are some very good clips of an Aikido Black Belt, who looks like he's running some police training seminars. (I've heard that most LEO's learn a form of this technique as well, but I can't account for that)

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HuIdkQcWhxc&feature=related]YouTube - Combat Aikido Gun Disarms[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tzcyh_DTWRg&feature=related]YouTube - Aikido Basic Disarms[/ame]

These same disarm techniques are taught in an almost identical fashion in Juijitsu as well, that I know of, and perhaps many other arts. Though the way I learned, technique was centered around continuing contact with the armed opponent in the form of a wrist lock to arm lock to take down. At that point, a foot to the neck is only a split second away.

 

[kingnereli]

punctuation is your friend.

To the OP: Draw to end it, plain and simple.

It looks like this. BG is advancing. If we've already determined that the person is a BG, then any advancement is a continuation of the threat. If I've reached back to draw, hand on my weapon, and he keeps walking towards me, he's not smart, but he is continuing to act in a threatening manner. If he STILL advances after I've drawn and presented him with the business end of my fo-tay, then all doubt is gone and things are not going to end well for him.

You would have to define "bad guy." In the OP you exchange words with this person then, later, he walks your direction in a non-threatening way. That is the only information we have to make the decision on whether this guy needs shot or not. This scenario would a no brainer if there were threats or a huge disparity of force. Yet some yelling and calmly walking your direction is all there is.

I'd like to see some more case law on this to be sure, but I would bet money I don't have that one able bodied man shooting another unarmed, able bodied man without so much as a threat would be an easy conviction. This scenario shows ability and jeopardy, but until you know intent you just can't pull the trigger.

 

[PatriotPride]

Good post Capulet. Thanks for digging up those vids

 

[PatriotPride]

I'd like to see some more case law on this to be sure, but I would bet money I don't have that one able bodied man shooting another unarmed, able bodied man without so much as a threat would be an easy conviction. This scenario shows ability and jeopardy, but until you know intent you just can't pull the trigger.

Mens Rea would definitely complicate the matter here I agree that the ability and jeopardy are present---but proving the BG's state of mind is going to be exceedingly difficult, especially if the BG survives and testifies that he meant you no harm.

 

[buffalo-springfield40]

wow..been going over situation in my head....which in real life we would'nt have time to do...but heres my spin.....me, being a bit older now then in my a$$ whopping days, if i really felt my life was in danger..and once i made the decision to draw my weapon...he would have one bad a$$ hole in his head...then it would be my story against a dead mans..i don't carry my gun to shoot 'em in the knees..thats what the baseball bat in the trunks for..

 

[kingnereli]

Mens Rea would definitely complicate the matter here I agree that the ability and jeopardy are present---but proving the BG's state of mind is going to be exceedingly difficult, especially if the BG survives and testifies that he meant you no harm.

Exactly.

wow..been going over situation in my head....which in real life we would'nt have time to do...but heres my spin.....me, being a bit older now then in my a$$ whopping days, if i really felt my life was in danger..and once i made the decision to draw my weapon...he would have one bad a$$ hole in his head...then it would be my story against a dead mans..i don't carry my gun to shoot 'em in the knees..thats what the baseball bat in the trunks for..

Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting anyone ever just take a beating. I'm saying there has to be a line where, if crossed, you know the mans intent. Where that line is at is a personal decision. I don't think the specific scenario in the OP is there yet. That isn't to say that it couldn't get there. For instance, the guy is saying "I'm not going to do anything,etc." You say, "Don't come any closer." Maybe he says, "I just want to talk." You say, "I can hear you from there. You don't need to come any closer." If this were to happen and he continues to advance you can be sure that his intent is not to just talk. His intent is something that requires close physical proximity.

 

[buffalo-springfield40]

Exactly.



Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting anyone ever just take a beating. I'm saying there has to be a line where, if crossed, you know the mans intent. Where that line is at is a personal decision. I don't think the specific scenario in the OP is there yet. That isn't to say that it couldn't get there. For instance, the guy is saying "I'm not going to do anything,etc." You say, "Don't come any closer." Maybe he says, "I just want to talk." You say, "I can hear you from there. You don't need to come any closer." If this were to happen and he continues to advance you can be sure that his intent is not to just talk. His intent is something that requires close physical proximity.

it's a tuff situation,,,but i'm just trying to follow the situation the original post has put me in.....i would hope that by the time he's walking toward me i would have already figured out plan B....but we all carry guns so in the event we feel our life is in danger...we have this option....like i said me being older..and with some handicaps i've developed from living life to the fullest i might draw the {my life is in danger} line alittle sooner then most....