The SB 101 (Religious Freedom Restoration) Thread

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    chipbennett

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    Tell that to the "I can refuse service to anyone for any reason I want" crowd. This just opened the door to their way of thinking.

    Here's where we disagree. To make such a claim using the RFRA, the person would first have to show that the service in question represents a substantial burden to the exercise of religion. That hurdle is not a guarantee. I find it hard to believe that a court would reasonably find that taking a cupcake out of the display case, and handing it to someone in exchange for money, represents a substantial burden on the exercise of religion.

    And even if that hurdle can be cleared, the government entity then has the opportunity to make a case that the substantial burden is in furtherance of a compelling government interest, done in the least-restrictive way possible. The right of public accommodation is the compelling government interest, and I can't think of any less-restrictive means to further that interest.
     

    Doug

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    As far as the threats aspect of this goes..... are the FBI and police involved in this?

    Also, what happens when they **** with somebody that won't back down?
    You can't have your cake and eat it too in some instances......

    Like all bullies, they turn and run.
    Usually, either screaming profanities and threats about what they're going to do while they scurry away or they whine and say they were just kidding and can't you take a joke?

    The abject cowardice has to do with being a bully, not anything else.
     

    chipbennett

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    Not at all, but there are many diverse religious beliefs. We don't need an official state religion where the government rubber stamps every of your beliefs. It's not anyone's job to legislate morality to the masses... yet it happens (on some level) everyday. Gay marriage ban is specifically a religious judgment of morality. Chip? mentioned earlier stop the government from acknowledging marriages all together and have them instead recognize civil unions for everyone. Suddenly the reason for the disagreement goes away.

    Yep, that was me. I in no way want to impose on anyone else how they live their lives, nor do I want to deny anyone else equal protection under the law. Marriage is a sacrament in Christianity (and other religions, as far as I am aware), and religious beliefs around marriage are some of the most ardent. Thus, when the State starts dictating to Christians regarding the nature of marriage, and how Christians must view marriage, it's not an unimportant matter.

    The problem originated with the State getting involved in marriage (a religious sacrament) in the first place. And, IMHO, the best and most appropriate way to fix the issue and to preserve the rights of everyone is to extricate the State from matters involving marriage. I would gladly go down to City Hall and sign a civil union certificate, if it meant that everyone could live in peace with respect to marriage.

    And like dusty (IIRC) and others: my conscience would not prevent me from celebrating a gay wedding ceremony. I am called to love others, to focus on my own faults, and to mind my own business with respect to others. It's rather hard to love people if you shun them. And with respect to the gay wedding ceremony: I am not required to condone something (that doesn't need my permission in the first place) in order to wish the participants well, and to wish health and happiness for them. My homosexual friends know my beliefs, and it has never mattered, because I try to treat everyone the same.

    But having said all that: I still support the rights of those for whom their conscience leads them differently. I think it would be equally wrong for me to shun someone who cannot in good conscience participate in a gay wedding as it would be for me to shun the celebrants in that wedding.

    As someone else has said: liberty can be messy. But I'd rather deal with the perceived messiness caused by more liberty for everyone, than to deal with the consequences of liberty constrained by government.
     
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    Yep, that was me. I in no way want to impose on anyone else how they live their lives, nor do I want to deny anyone else equal protection under the law. Marriage is a sacrament in Christianity (and other religions, as far as I am aware), and religious beliefs around marriage are some of the most ardent. Thus, when the State starts dictating to Christians regarding the nature of marriage, and how Christians must view marriage, it's not an unimportant matter.

    The problem originated with the State getting involved in marriage (a religious sacrament) in the first place. And, IMHO, the best and most appropriate way to fix the issue and to preserve the rights of everyone is to extricate the State from matters involving marriage. I would gladly go down to City Hall and sign a civil union certificate, if it meant that everyone could live in peace with respect to marriage.

    And like dusty (IIRC) and others: my conscience would not prevent me from celebrating a gay wedding ceremony. I am called to love others, to focus on my own faults, and to mind my own business with respect to others. It's rather hard to love people if you shun them. And with respect to the gay wedding ceremony: I am not required to condone something (that doesn't need my permission in the first place) in order to wish the participants well, and to wish health and happiness for them. My homosexual friends know my beliefs, and it has never mattered, because I try to treat everyone the same.

    But having said all that: I still support the rights of those for whom their conscience leads them differently. I think it would be equally wrong for me to shun someone who cannot in good conscience participate in a gay wedding as it would be for me to shun the celebrants in that wedding.

    As someone else has said: liberty can be messy. But I'd rather deal with the perceived messiness caused by more liberty for everyone, than to deal with the consequences of liberty constrained by government.

    The state isn't dictating anything to Christians regarding the nature of marriage, or how they should view it. Christians are just as free now to view and engage in marriage based on the tenets of Christianity as they have always been. No one, including the gay community, has even suggested that should change. All the state is saying, and it's about time, is that gay people can do it too without fear of intervention by the state or by individuals. You can disagree all you want. What you CAN'T do is interfere or have the government use its coercive power to interfere at your behest.

    I would also point out that although an individual's deity of choice may define marriage for some he does not define it for all. Man defines marriage, and always has.
     

    chipbennett

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    The state isn't dictating anything to Christians regarding the nature of marriage, or how they should view it. Christians are just as free now to view and engage in marriage based on the tenets of Christianity as they have always been. No one, including the gay community, has even suggested that should change. All the state is saying, and it's about time, is that gay people can do it too without fear of intervention by the state or by individuals. You can disagree all you want. What you CAN'T do is interfere or have the government use its coercive power to interfere at your behest.

    I would also point out that although an individual's deity of choice may define marriage for some he does not define it for all. Man defines marriage, and always has.

    Tell that to the photographer and florist who were required by the state to participate in a wedding in violation of their conscience, etc.
     

    miguel

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    I sent this to my state Rep and Senator. Feel free to use it if you are not a wordsmith but want to reach our to your local politico.

    Dear X,

    Regarding the "fix" proposed for the Religious Freedom law.

    The retreat of our party from this law is embarrassing. It would be better to revoke the entire statute than "fix" it at the behest of the people it was meant to protect Hoosiers from!

    If the House passes this "fix" I will not only never vote for a GOP candidate again, I will actively campaign against the GOP in Hamilton County and the state of Indiana with the meagre means I have.

    Please do not let us down. If we can't pass laws with a super-majority in both houses and a GOP governor, there is no point in voting for GOP candidates in the future. Period. Paragraph. I have lived in Hamilton County for over 40 years.
     
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    Tell that to the photographer and florist who were required by the state to participate in a wedding in violation of their conscience, etc.

    IF such a thing happened, I find it abhorrent. I think any business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone, anytime, and for any reason, including ugly ones. What I cannot support is singling anyone out for this treatment, especially if it is codified in law.

    ​A business owner should either be able to refuse service to ANYONE, or to NO ONE.
     

    Bartman

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    KG1

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    I can remember a time when death threats were made and supported only by a small minority of extremists. Now it's the general public.
    Don't you know that death threats are considered as a form of boycotting and thus a part of the free market system according to some posters here on INGO?
     

    miguel

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    IF such a thing happened, I find it abhorrent. I think any business owner should be able to refuse service to anyone, anytime, and for any reason, including ugly ones. What I cannot support is singling anyone out for this treatment, especially if it is codified in law.

    ​A business owner should either be able to refuse service to ANYONE, or to NO ONE.

    Is a $1,000 fine enough to convince you?

    Barronelle Stutzman, Washington Florist Who Discriminated Against Gay Couple, Ordered To Pay Fine

    And enjoy this detail: ""The ACLU, on behalf of the same-sex couple also suing Barronelle, has asked the court to award them penalties, fees and costs, which will financially devastate Barronelle's business and personal assets—including taking this 70-year-old grandmother's retirement and personal savings."" (source: 'Surrender Your Religious Liberty and Free Speech Rights, or Face Personal and Professional Ruin')
     
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    Is a $1,000 fine enough to convince you?

    Barronelle Stutzman, Washington Florist Who Discriminated Against Gay Couple, Ordered To Pay Fine

    And enjoy this detail: ""The ACLU, on behalf of the same-sex couple also suing Barronelle, has asked the court to award them penalties, fees and costs, which will financially devastate Barronelle's business and personal assets—including taking this 70-year-old grandmother's retirement and personal savings."" (source: 'Surrender Your Religious Liberty and Free Speech Rights, or Face Personal and Professional Ruin')

    ​Yes, it convinces me. And if this lady wants to start one of those funding pages I'll contribute to it.
     
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