The SB 101 (Religious Freedom Restoration) Thread

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    chipbennett

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    I was wondering how this was going to play out. Were those critics going to be ok with the changes, declare a victory. See blood in the water and go for more? Looking more like the latter...

    This entire episode could have been avoided if not for pandering to a constituency that has no business being in politics to begin with.

    People with religious beliefs have no business being in politics? Is that seriously what you just said?

    200 years later the separation of church and state still hasn't resonated.

    The phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution, or any legislation. Further, the intended meaning, in the context of its use, was the prevention of the state interfering with the church - not the other way around.

    Islam is the fastest growing religion on the planet. At the rate we are allowing our borders to be walked across, extending special offers of amnesty, etc.. how do you think this plays out in another 100 years if we have a large Muslim segment of our populace that wishes to impose it's will politically.

    Well, if they can get a large enough majority to get a constitutional amendment approved, and then ratified in a sufficient number of states, then that might be an issue. That's the beauty of a constitutional republic versus a democracy.

    Unfortunately, we are setting precedent by making laws regarding matters that a) weren't an issue to start and b) involving the government where it doesn't belong.

    So, you can see the impending issue with illegal immigration and spread of Muslim sharia culture, and can envision how it might impact our society in 100 years - but at the same time, you are unable to see how substantial burdens are being placed (or attempted to be placed) on the right of religious exercise across the country, and can't see how enacting an RFRA is necessary?

    Also, the RFRA doesn't "involve the government where it doesn't belong." To the contrary, the RFRA constrains where the government may involve itself.

    Preemptive laws to address an issue that doesn't exist. Is this addressing the issues that are most concerning the citizens of this state? I suspect that is not the case. The proponents and supporters are the ones being heard... the majority are standing on the sidelines shaking their head in silence.

    If your argument is that there were more pressing matters to attend to, I can buy that argument. I believe that the RFRA was needed on its own merits anyway, but at least it's a valid argument.
     

    Doug

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    I had a very witty comment to make about today's political climate and pre-WWII Germany, but it probably wouldn't be appreciated by some.
    Just make up your own.
     

    AA&E

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    People with religious beliefs have no business being in politics? Is that seriously what you just said?



    The phrase "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution, or any legislation. Further, the intended meaning, in the context of its use, was the prevention of the state interfering with the church - not the other way around.



    Well, if they can get a large enough majority to get a constitutional amendment approved, and then ratified in a sufficient number of states, then that might be an issue. That's the beauty of a constitutional republic versus a democracy.



    So, you can see the impending issue with illegal immigration and spread of Muslim sharia culture, and can envision how it might impact our society in 100 years - but at the same time, you are unable to see how substantial burdens are being placed (or attempted to be placed) on the right of religious exercise across the country, and can't see how enacting an RFRA is necessary?

    Also, the RFRA doesn't "involve the government where it doesn't belong." To the contrary, the RFRA constrains where the government may involve itself.



    If your argument is that there were more pressing matters to attend to, I can buy that argument. I believe that the RFRA was needed on its own merits anyway, but at least it's a valid argument.

    Religion doesn't belong in politics if your goal is influencing your beliefs upon others. That is where we issue with Islam comes in, but we have so many examples where precedent has been set that is will be a difficult argument to make in the future when things aren't going the way you'd like them to be.

    Perhaps in this instance religious influence isn't true, but it is certainly the argument being made and the perception. You are the one being disingenuous if you can not acknowledge this bill was an attempt to garner support and energize the Christian conservative electorate. That is by definition pandering.

    Your argument regarding constitutional amendments... Certainly you recognize there are example of laws on the books past and present which were fabricated with religious influence. In this current case there was no constitutional convention, due to it's local/state area of influence. Indiana law was simply presented, voted upon and signed. The same could happen down the road on matters favoring something you might not be as willing to support.

    The RFRA doesn't just constrain the government, it might even preempted the judiciary via legislative oversight. Quelling a problem where one didn't exist. Potentially preventing the ability for numerous issues to even have their day in court. One of your previous posts made comment regarding passing the muster on the legitimacy of a religion that had marijuana as a sacrament seeking protection under this bill. You implied they wouldn't (shouldn't) pass. Why? Does the government get to acknowledge this religion and deny another? Do you not see the potential for abuse in such a system? This is a group that is largely suspicious of government involvement in their lives.. but when it's a lifestyle they don't agree with, approve of, isn't popular, or just strikes them as weird... we shrug our shoulders and don't give a ****?
     

    chipbennett

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    Whatever man, you don't know me. That post wasn't even directed toward you.

    Yeah, as I said.. life of the party... much as I suspected.

    Was this juxtaposition intentional? If so, it was well-played.

    AA&E said:
    I never stated he was wrong in what he did. If you went back through this thread my entire argument wasn't against a persons refusal to not take part in gay weddings, it was the notion this was going to be utilized for a much more broad scope of discrimination. Judging by the threads you can see there is that distinct possibility.

    There was no such broad-scope discrimination before the RFRA. There is no evidence that such discrimination was legal before the RFRA. The RFRA did nothing to legalized/facilitate/encourage such discrimination. And there's no evidence that anyone intends to use the RFRA toward that end.

    What we do see, however, is the scorched-earth tactics the left will use in the name of "tolerance."

    AA&E said:
    I assure you I wouldn't sell off my eternal soul for 100K. The said pizza maker is cashing in.

    Is this a false flag situation or something?

    The pizzeria owners did not create the fundraiser.

    Yes. The pizzeria owner is cashing in on a fundraiser that they have nothing to do with, because it was started by a third party. That's some ninja-level deviousness, right there.
     

    miguel

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    Rush just mentioned the funding initiative. It will be interesting to see what the bottom line ends up being.
     

    AA&E

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    The fundraiser was set up by Dana Loesch's producer; are you intimating he or she is a crook?

    Nope. I didn't know who established it, nor through what channels the legitimate owner goes about claiming it. That was my only question.

    There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions.

    I also had no clue who Dana Loesch was until I googled it. Not a big talk show host these days. Last show I listened to regularly was G Gordon Liddy in the early 90's. I don't want someone to tell me what I should think these days. The media tries enough as it is already.
     

    ArcadiaGP

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    Thanks for mentioning that.

    For all the people moaning about a third-party stepping in, how is that different from Nike, Salesforce and the NCAA getting involved?

    Yeah, it's pretty much like the craft shop in Ferguson that was trashed. Some third party created a GoFundMe to help them get through it.
     

    jamil

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    Religion doesn't belong in politics if your goal is influencing your beliefs upon others.

    So influencing your beliefs upon others is okay if you're not religious?

    Cool! You must agree with me that progressives are evil, or else you are evil.
     

    cobber

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    That being the case, how do you know the funds actually go to the intended recipient?

    Wow. This one takes the cake, and in this thread...

    Nope. I didn't know who established it, nor through what channels the legitimate owner goes about claiming it. That was my only question.

    There seems to be a lot of jumping to conclusions.

    Oh yes, the ''I'm just asking a question" ploy...

    Yes. The pizzeria owner is cashing in on a fundraiser that they have nothing to do with, because it was started by a third party. That's some ninja-level deviousness, right there.

    :+1:
    Sort of like those Ferguson businesses 'cashing in' on their being burned out by the mob. Somehow 'cashing in' in this context seems a less-than-optimal outcome.
     
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    AA&E

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    There was no such broad-scope discrimination before the RFRA. There is no evidence that such discrimination was legal before the RFRA. The RFRA did nothing to legalized/facilitate/encourage such discrimination. And there's no evidence that anyone intends to use the RFRA toward that end.

    What we do see, however, is the scorched-earth tactics the left will use in the name of "tolerance."

    Tell that to the "I can refuse service to anyone for any reason I want" crowd. This just opened the door to their way of thinking.


    Yes. The pizzeria owner is cashing in on a fundraiser that they have nothing to do with, because it was started by a third party. That's some ninja-level deviousness, right there.

    I never implied the pizza store owner did anything wrong, I only defended those who choose to not shop at his establishments choice to do so. You can't make comments that some people will find inflammatory and not expect some level of response. Death threats were going to far... but I think we've covered that already. He should have said "who would want pizza catering at a wedding" and looked at the reporter like he was an idiot...
     

    ArcadiaGP

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    I think there were just minor misunderstandings about how the GoFundMe was created. We've all settled it, and we all understand it now. It's not a topic for anyone else to throw jabs about. Let's move on to the RFRA changes, or back to the previous topic.
     

    AA&E

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    So influencing your beliefs upon others is okay if you're not religious?

    Cool! You must agree with me that progressives are evil, or else you are evil.

    Not at all, but there are many diverse religious beliefs. We don't need an official state religion where the government rubber stamps every of your beliefs. It's not anyone's job to legislate morality to the masses... yet it happens (on some level) everyday. Gay marriage ban is specifically a religious judgment of morality. Chip? mentioned earlier stop the government from acknowledging marriages all together and have them instead recognize civil unions for everyone. Suddenly the reason for the disagreement goes away.
     

    AA&E

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    Wow. This one takes the cake, and in this thread...



    Oh yes, the ''I'm just asking a question" ploy...



    :+1:
    Sort of like those Ferguson businesses 'cashing in' on their being burned out by the mob. Somehow 'cashing in' in this context seems a less-than-optimal outcome.

    Seriously, it was a question. You are sensitive crowd.
     
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