The President Trump Immigration Thread

[JettaKnight]

Maybe you could quote the xenophobic parts and we could discuss what’s xenophobic about it.

OK, well here it is in plain English:

For example, many Muslim immigrants from the Middle East and North Africa bring with them a value that permeates the societies from which they came -- anti-Semitism.

In other words, we don't want immigrants from certain countries because they bring cultural and political values that don't align with ours. That's pretty much text book xenophobia (dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.) - "people in these countries are bad, mkay." At best you could argue it's selective xenophobia; which is still xenophobia.

 

[printcraft]

Something something it’s not a suicide pact.

I noticed you didn’t say the statement wasn’t true.

 

[JettaKnight]

I noticed you didn’t say the statement wasn’t true.

I cannot tell a lie.

 

[jamil]

OK, well here it is in plain English:


In other words, we don't want immigrants from certain countries because they bring cultural and political values that don't align with ours. That's pretty much text book xenophobia (dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.) - "people in these countries are bad, mkay." At best you could argue it's selective xenophobia; which is still xenophobia.

I wouldn't put that quote in those words unless I were looking for some words which I could claim was xenophobic. I think you're taking license when you summarize it as "people in these countries are bad, mkay." I think it's true enough that there are some people who would interpret that statement in a way that is xenophobic. The article seems to be defending the idea of limiting immigration to people who are compatible with our nation's values. Now if that's completely based on differences for the sake of being different, I guess I'd agree that is xenophobic.

But, if it's about concern that the the opposition is more about incompatibility with Western values, I think I would agree with that. For example, people who oppose free markets, probably shouldn't move here. And I'm okay with it if we prioritize immigration of people who like to live in free market economies. That's not xenophobic.

There are some problems with the article, but I didn't really get the impression that it was particularly xenophobic.

 

[BugI02]

OK, well here it is in plain English:


In other words, we don't want immigrants from certain countries because they bring cultural and political values that don't align with ours. That's pretty much text book xenophobia (dislike of or prejudice against people from other countries.) - "people in these countries are bad, mkay." At best you could argue it's selective xenophobia; which is still xenophobia.

“In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person’s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American … There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn’t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag … We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language … and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.”


Theodore Roosevelt 1907

The idea is not a new thing, the only new thing is thinking some 'Americans' should get a pass

 

[JettaKnight]

I wouldn't put that quote in those words unless I were looking for some words which I could claim was xenophobic. I think you're taking license when you summarize it as "people in these countries are bad, mkay." I think it's true enough that there are some people who would interpret that statement in a way that is xenophobic. The article seems to be defending the idea of limiting immigration to people who are compatible with our nation's values. Now if that's completely based on differences for the sake of being different, I guess I'd agree that is xenophobic.

But, if it's about concern that the the opposition is more about incompatibility with Western values, I think I would agree with that. For example, people who oppose free markets, probably shouldn't move here. And I'm okay with it if we prioritize immigration of people who like to live in free market economies. That's not xenophobic.

There are some problems with the article, but I didn't really get the impression that it was particularly xenophobic.

The argument Prager makes is people from country X have values that are incompatible, therefore we should be opposed to immigrants from X.

How is that not xenophobia?

 

[T.Lex]

I view "xenophobia" more as a fear of people from any other country. If there's a reason proffered (even if it is unreasonable) to discriminate against a specific country, then I don't see that as xenophobia. That might be a [country-specific]phobia. Or [valuespecific]phobia. Prager's suggestion leaves open the possibility that there may be countries that have different cultural values, but those cultural values may not be incompatible with our own.

Just MHO.

By the way, I think that suggestion, if actually applied, would lend itself to a more liberal immigration policy. For instance, Islam has been proven to be compatible with Western values.

 

[BugI02]

I view "xenophobia" more as a fear of people from any other country. If there's a reason proffered (even if it is unreasonable) to discriminate against a specific country, then I don't see that as xenophobia. That might be a [country-specific]phobia. Or [valuespecific]phobia. Prager's suggestion leaves open the possibility that there may be countries that have different cultural values, but those cultural values may not be incompatible with our own.

Just MHO.

By the way, I think that suggestion, if actually applied, would lend itself to a more liberal immigration policy. For instance, Islam has been proven to be compatible with Western values.

Fixy

 

[BugI02]

The argument Prager makes is people from country X have values that are incompatible, therefore we should be opposed to immigrants from X.

How is that not xenophobia?

As a phobia is an irrational or unreasoned fear, I object to the use of terminology built on the idea to criticize viewpoints some might not agree with. It is begging the question by prejudging any desire for increased vetting for groups of immigrants from countries or areas known to harbor viewpoints antipathetic to American ideals. We can certainly disagree on what constitute American ideals, but I seriously doubt Prager was/is advocating a blanket decree barring all immigrants from [insert country de celebre here]. I find it more likely they believe it right and proper to seek immigrants who believe in American ideals and wish to be part of our greatness rather than just be disgruntled employees of or wards of the state

 

[Ingomike]

The argument Prager makes is people from country X have values that are incompatible, therefore we should be opposed to immigrants from X.

How is that not xenophobia?

As a phobia is an irrational or unreasoned fear, I object to the use of terminology built on the idea to criticize viewpoints some might not agree with. It is begging the question by prejudging any desire for increased vetting for groups of immigrants from countries or areas known to harbor viewpoints antipathetic to American ideals. We can certainly disagree on what constitute American ideals, but I seriously doubt Prager was/is advocating a blanket decree barring all immigrants from [insert country de celebre here]. I find it more likely they believe it right and proper to seek immigrants who believe in American ideals and wish to be part of our greatness rather than just be disgruntled employees of or wards of the state

And if one reads Prager or watches the videos he distributes he is for immigration with assimilation, expecting immigrants to be part of the team continuing to push America to greatness.

 

[jamil]

The argument Prager makes is people from country X have values that are incompatible, therefore we should be opposed to immigrants from X.

How is that not xenophobia?

Xenophobia is a fear or dislike of people who are different from them. Often it’s people from another country because customs and values are different. It’s essentially ethnocentrism.

You can say they’re applying a stereotype to everyone from those countries, when the values and behaviors they think aren’t compatible, aren’t actually shared by everyone. You can even call it prejudice. But if it’s not just because they’re different, it’s not xenophobic.

I’ll take an extreme example. It’s not xenophobic for Americans not to want MS13 gang members to come here. They look different. Their culture is different. But it’s not because of xenophobia that we don’t want them here. (I feel I have to say it because someone’s gonna protest, no I’m not comparing muslims to MS13)

Yankee moves to the south. “Damn Yankee drinks unsweet tea. Who the hell drinks unsweet tea. They’s obviously something wrong with this here Yankee. We don’t want your kind round here.” THAT’s Xenophobic.

 

[T.Lex]

It’s essentially ethnocentrism.

Yeah, that's a better word for what they're describing.

 

[KLB]

Xenophobia is a fear or dislike of people who are different from them. Often it’s people from another country because customs and values are different. It’s essentially ethnocentrism.

You can say they’re applying a stereotype to everyone from those countries, when the values and behaviors they think aren’t compatible, aren’t actually shared by everyone. You can even call it prejudice. But if it’s not just because they’re different, it’s not xenophobic.

I’ll take an extreme example. It’s not xenophobic for Americans not to want MS13 gang members to come here. They look different. Their culture is different. But it’s not because of xenophobia that we don’t want them here. (I feel I have to say it because someone’s gonna protest, no I’m not comparing muslims to MS13)

Yankee moves to the south. “Damn Yankee drinks unsweet tea. Who the hell drinks unsweet tea. They’s obviously something wrong with this here Yankee. We don’t want your kind round here.” THAT’s Xenophobic.

Hey now! I'm a Yankee born and bred, and I totally agree with the unsweet tea feeling!

 

[DoggyDaddy]

Xenophobia is a fear or dislike of people who are different from them. Often it’s people from another country because customs and values are different. It’s essentially ethnocentrism.

You can say they’re applying a stereotype to everyone from those countries, when the values and behaviors they think aren’t compatible, aren’t actually shared by everyone. You can even call it prejudice. But if it’s not just because they’re different, it’s not xenophobic.

I’ll take an extreme example. It’s not xenophobic for Americans not to want MS13 gang members to come here. They look different. Their culture is different. But it’s not because of xenophobia that we don’t want them here. (I feel I have to say it because someone’s gonna protest, no I’m not comparing muslims to MS13)

Yankee moves to the south. “Damn Yankee drinks unsweet tea. Who the hell drinks unsweet tea. They’s obviously something wrong with this here Yankee. We don’t want your kind round here.” THAT’s Xenophobic.

There was an episode of American Pickers where they were picking down in Texas and the guy whose property they were picking said, "Yankees are like hemorrhoids. If they come down and go back up, it's okay. When they come down and stay down, they're a pain in the ass."

 

[ArcadiaGP]

Supreme Court, split 5-4, endorses government ability to detain immigrants awaiting deportation potentially years after they have completed prison terms for criminal convictions

 

[mmpsteve]

Supreme Court, split 5-4, endorses government ability to detain immigrants awaiting deportation potentially years after they have completed prison terms for criminal convictions

I don't understand, yet, all the ramifications of this, but the 9th Circuit was slapped down again, and so I want to know more. Here's a brief article, for those, like me, who never heard of this ruling:

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/03/19/supreme-court-immigrants-detained-past-crimes-1281117

.

 

[fnpfan]

Supreme Court, split 5-4, endorses government ability to detain immigrants awaiting deportation potentially years after they have completed prison terms for criminal convictions

I completely support this decision, most of these "immigrants" referred to are not "immigrants" but illegal border jumpers, Keep making it less appealing for them to come here, this is a step in the right direction

 

[Dimik]

I really don't understand all the hysteria. Why would anyone not want borders defended? That's the whole bloody point of borders.
A little story from my own experience. Years ago before I started doing what I do now, I was a waiter in NYC. As you may imagine, the entire food industry is packed to the brim with illegals of all sorts - Mexicans, Guatemalans, Russians, Ukrainians, Poles, Estonians, hell, I think there was a Canadian with expired papers! Anyway, I was working a small catered job as some house and there were just two waiters and a cook. The cook's name was Eric, and he was from Mexico. I've worked with him many times before and we started chatting. He asked me what I was doing for holidays (it was Christmas time) and I asked him the same. He told me he was going home to see family. I was surprised because I assumed he was illegal, and asked him whether he had papers. He answered "No." So I asked how he was planning to come back, and his response just knocked me out. He said "oh it's easy, I just pay $3,000 and a truck brings me across the border. I've done it plenty of times!" Sure enough, a few months later I saw him again, asked if he visited family, and he said yes. So THIS is how transparent our border is.
Another guy, also from Mexico, also without papers, used to brag about crossing the border into Canada to bring back bricks of weed to sell for extra cash.
No I'm not making it up. So as far as I'm concerned, we can put up an iron curtain.

 

[KLB]

And you think a wall changes any of that?

 

[Dimik]

To be completely honest, no, not really. However, it's gotten to the point that every time the border is mentioned, certain elements of society start frothing at the mouth and turning their heads 360˚, which makes me want the biggest wall the world has ever seen.