The President Trump Immigration Thread

[Route 45]

The New Way Forward Act fundamentally inverts every assumption you have about America. Under this legislation, the criminals are the victims. Law enforcement is illegitimate. It’s racist, just like the country you live in, and the only solution is to get rid of both. America would be better off as a borderless rest area for the world’s worst predators and parasites.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tuc...under-bill-aoc-and-other-house-democrats-back

 

[Kutnupe14]

The New Way Forward Act fundamentally inverts every assumption you have about America. Under this legislation, the criminals are the victims. Law enforcement is illegitimate. It’s racist, just like the country you live in, and the only solution is to get rid of both. America would be better off as a borderless rest area for the world’s worst predators and parasites.

https://www.foxnews.com/opinion/tuc...under-bill-aoc-and-other-house-democrats-back

Good luck with that one AOC.

 

[jamil]

Good luck with that one AOC.

Yeah? That’s what I used to say. Those kinds of ideas are supported by more people than than a few years ago.

 

[nonobaddog]

Yeah? That’s what I used to say. Those kinds of ideas are supported by more people than than a few years ago.

People used to use the pendulum analogy where it swings left and right but seeks the moderate middle.
The problem with that is every time it swings left it does more damage to the country.

 

[GodFearinGunTotin]

People used to use the pendulum analogy where it swings left and right but seeks the moderate middle.
The problem with that is every time it swings left it does more damage to the country.

It seems like every time a swing left comes, it shifts the entire clock leftward so that the eventual rightward swing means less and less.

 

[printcraft]

Good luck with that one AOC.

They are the loudest voices and who are driving the future direction of the democrat party.
There is a disconnect with the traditional dems. Alpo? He doesn't support that crap as far as I can tell from interaction here.
#walkaway should be #pushedaway

 

[jamil]

It seems like every time a swing left comes, it shifts the entire clock leftward so that the eventual rightward swing means less and less.

You probably won't agree with the evolutionary part of my theory about this, but I think the following makes sense.

Conservatives are less open to change and like to preserve tradition. Progressives are open to change and like to "progress" to new ways of thinking and acting. As society evolves (not physical evolution, but societal) and learns to override their evolved instincts, conservatives are more cautious to override them. Progressives are eager to override them. Even if it's not beneficial to procreation, as people choose to override those instincts, the next generation becomes more inclined to override them as they become more normal. So eventually that becomes the norm, the "tradition", and then the future conservative minded people conserve that.

Okay so every now and again, as "progress" makes the non-beneficial overrides existentially evident, there's a reset in the trend line of progression. I think that's what we like to think of as the pendulum swinging. Counter-culture may be a built in mechanism from preventing us from going too far in a wrong direction. But it's not a pendulum. It's just a reset; a correction in trajectory. I think we're about to enter a correction. The counter culture is becoming more conservative minded, or at least that is to say, not as receptive to where the progressives want to take us next, as they experience the downsides of the new cultural norms.

I had a conversation with a young relative over the holidays. She's 19, a sophomore in college. She said that she thinks she's becoming a conservative. I asked her some questions about some of her political beliefs, especially positions which would typically describe what we think of as conservatives. She disagreed with most of those, but she vehemently disagreed with the SJW nonsense. She'd lost friends of different races recently; they called her a racist because of her hair and skin color. That's why she thought she must be a conservative, because she didn't agree with that.

Counter-cultures help start the corrections. But they don't get us back to exactly a point in the prior progression. So it's not like a pendulum that precisely traces it's path back to a previous start point. It's just a rejection of some cultural norms that were toxic enough to get most people to eventually reject them, but without rejecting the entire "progress" made. The result looks like the leftward move is so great that the eventual rightward swing is less and less. It's not necessarily rightwards. As society progresses, it deems some of that progress beneficial and worth keeping, notwithstanding that it leaves many conservatives wishing it would have regressed more.

TL;DR: It's not a pendulum, it's a correction. At most, the thing that western society gets corrected to, is the consensus view about what is tolerable in what society has progressed to, for most members of society.

 

[jamil]

They are the loudest voices and who are driving the future direction of the democrat party.
There is a disconnect with the traditional dems. Alpo? He doesn't support that crap as far as I can tell from interaction here.
#walkaway should be #pushedaway

I think there's also a sort of denial within the party that it's getting this bad. I think the tendency is to think this is just a fringe group, and it is in that there aren't as many of the bat-**** crazies in the wild. They just have way more institutional power. To put it in the words of George Takei, they're organized and well funded. I think they took the democratic party by surprise.

 

[nonobaddog]

You probably won't agree with the evolutionary part of my theory about this, but I think the following makes sense.

Conservatives are less open to change and like to preserve tradition. Progressives are open to change and like to "progress" to new ways of thinking and acting. As society evolves (not physical evolution, but societal) and learns to override their evolved instincts, conservatives are more cautious to override them. Progressives are eager to override them. Even if it's not beneficial to procreation, as people choose to override those instincts, the next generation becomes more inclined to override them as they become more normal. So eventually that becomes the norm, the "tradition", and then the future conservative minded people conserve that.

Okay so every now and again, as "progress" makes the non-beneficial overrides existentially evident, there's a reset in the trend line of progression. I think that's what we like to think of as the pendulum swinging. Counter-culture may be a built in mechanism from preventing us from going too far in a wrong direction. But it's not a pendulum. It's just a reset; a correction in trajectory. I think we're about to enter a correction. The counter culture is becoming more conservative minded, or at least that is to say, not as receptive to where the progressives want to take us next, as they experience the downsides of the new cultural norms.

I had a conversation with a young relative over the holidays. She's 19, a sophomore in college. She said that she thinks she's becoming a conservative. I asked her some questions about some of her political beliefs, especially positions which would typically describe what we think of as conservatives. She disagreed with most of those, but she vehemently disagreed with the SJW nonsense. She'd lost friends of different races recently; they called her a racist because of her hair and skin color. That's why she thought she must be a conservative, because she didn't agree with that.

Counter-cultures help start the corrections. But they don't get us back to exactly a point in the prior progression. So it's not like a pendulum that precisely traces it's path back to a previous start point. It's just a rejection of some cultural norms that were toxic enough to get most people to eventually reject them, but without rejecting the entire "progress" made. The result looks like the leftward move is so great that the eventual rightward swing is less and less. It's not necessarily rightwards. As society progresses, it deems some of that progress beneficial and worth keeping, notwithstanding that it leaves many conservatives wishing it would have regressed more.

TL;DR: It's not a pendulum, it's a correction. At most, the thing that western society gets corrected to, is the consensus view about what is tolerable in what society has progressed to, for most members of society.

So it is like a pendulum where the pivot or fulcrum is slowly moving. Hopefully slowly. When it moves too fast it needs to retrace.
You are suggesting it moves to the left since that is where the progressive always head. That does seem to be the trend but it doesn't have to be. Too often in history that trend has led to destruction of the society(Greeks, Romans).
Right now it looks to me that the pendulum is over on the left and maybe just starting to head right while the pivot or fulcrum has moved very slightly left.

 

[nonobaddog]

Wrong thread.

 

[jamil]

So it is like a pendulum where the pivot or fulcrum is slowly moving. Hopefully slowly. When it moves too fast it needs to retrace.
You are suggesting it moves to the left since that is where the progressive always head. That does seem to be the trend but it doesn't have to be. Too often in history that trend has led to destruction of the society(Greeks, Romans).
Right now it looks to me that the pendulum is over on the left and maybe just starting to head right while the pivot or fulcrum has moved very slightly left.

I'm kinda saying that but not exactly that. First, I think destruction of a society happens when those corrections fail to resolve the destructive overrides of instinct.

But to the point, I would say that a pendulum isn't an adequate analogy. The correction isn't retracing. It's reverting selective aspects of the progression while keeping others. For example, no one in society wants to revert EVERTHING back to how it was in the 50s and 60s. Maybe you might want to revert some things back, like the prominence of the nuclear family, and the respectfulness demanded by parents of their children. But, I doubt anyone wants to revert much of the progress made in matters of race. Some of us might want to revert some of the laws and social policies, because we believe they're harmful to all races. Point is, not all progress is good, and the consensus of what is bad causes a healthy society to reject it.

I think that if we don't revert this social justice nonsense, this society will destroy itself. And who knows how long it will take for another free society to rise again.

 

[nonobaddog]

I'm kinda saying that but not exactly that. First, I think destruction of a society happens when those corrections fail to resolve the destructive overrides of instinct.

But to the point, I would say that a pendulum isn't an adequate analogy. The correction isn't retracing. It's reverting selective aspects of the progression while keeping others. For example, no one in society wants to revert EVERTHING back to how it was in the 50s and 60s. Maybe you might want to revert some things back, like the prominence of the nuclear family, and the respectfulness demanded by parents of their children. But, I doubt anyone wants to revert much of the progress made in matters of race. Some of us might want to revert some of the laws and social policies, because we believe they're harmful to all races. Point is, not all progress is good, and the consensus of what is bad causes a healthy society to reject it.

I think that if we don't revert this social justice nonsense, this society will destroy itself. And who knows how long it will take for another free society to rise again.

Definitely agree. The pendulum is an old analogy. It seems almost adequate when using a historical perspective looking at our society in general terms. However when applied to the current society it falls apart miserably. As we look at the current society we are much more involved with different fragments because we are so much closer to today and generalization fails. Like using a microscope on today and a fuzzy window on yesterday. For instance I would say it is currently swinging right with regards to our economy what with trying to correct foreign trade policies and domestic manufacturing while at the same time it is swinging left with regard to education and morality, etc.

 

[jamil]

Definitely agree. The pendulum is an old analogy. It seems almost adequate when using a historical perspective looking at our society in general terms. However when applied to the current society it falls apart miserably. As we look at the current society we are much more involved with different fragments because we are so much closer to today and generalization fails. Like using a microscope on today and a fuzzy window on yesterday. For instance I would say it is currently swinging right with regards to our economy what with trying to correct foreign trade policies and domestic manufacturing while at the same time it is swinging left with regard to education and morality, etc.

Right. I would say that's this selective or consensus correction. And it's necessary to have these if society doesn't want a complete reset into a collapse. So when societies collapse, I think that's a reversion to instinctive self-interest and whatever real progress was made in society is lost until redescovered. Rome fell into the dark ages, then the West rediscovered some of the Greco-Roman principles and eventually the West improved upon those ideas with the enlightenment. I think overriding instincts is how we can become better people, but not all overriding of instincts does that.

 

[nonobaddog]

Right. I would say that's this selective or consensus correction. And it's necessary to have these if society doesn't want a complete reset into a collapse. So when societies collapse, I think that's a reversion to instinctive self-interest and whatever real progress was made in society is lost until redescovered. Rome fell into the dark ages, then the West rediscovered some of the Greco-Roman principles and eventually the West improved upon those ideas with the enlightenment. I think overriding instincts is how we can become better people, but not all overriding of instincts does that.

Where would there be even the possibility of the genesis of a new free society?
No more new livable continents.

And off to hockey for a while.

 

[HoughMade]

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/c...QbNqedLVSqWsYZjnzkWitcmRepbC14evn77nYgtVfL358

Court sides with President Trump in 'sanctuary cities' grant fight


As it should be. The feds can't force state (and local) governments to enforce federal law, but they don't have to give them money either.

On to SCOTUS where this opinion has a good chance to be the one which is upheld.

 

[Kutnupe14]

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/c...QbNqedLVSqWsYZjnzkWitcmRepbC14evn77nYgtVfL358

Court sides with President Trump in 'sanctuary cities' grant fight


As it should be. The feds can't force state (and local) governments to enforce federal law, but they don't have to give them money either.

On to SCOTUS where this opinion has a good chance to be the one which is upheld.

I agree, the right call.... and now a precedent is set. Should be interesting how this will be used when the other party has that tool at their disposal.

 

[T.Lex]

https://www.fox32chicago.com/news/c...QbNqedLVSqWsYZjnzkWitcmRepbC14evn77nYgtVfL358

Court sides with President Trump in 'sanctuary cities' grant fight


As it should be. The feds can't force state (and local) governments to enforce federal law, but they don't have to give them money either.

On to SCOTUS where this opinion has a good chance to be the one which is upheld.

Federalism remains alive and kicking.

Well.

Teeny tiny kicks.

More like spasms.

Alive with occasional reflexive movements that present arguable proof of life.

 

[HoughMade]

I agree, the right call.... and now a precedent is set. Should be interesting how this will be used when the other party has that tool at their disposal.

Indeed, but for this to be used in another context....they would have to, y'know....actually NOT be enforcing laws, not just talking about not enforcing laws.

 

[BugI02]

I'm kinda saying that but not exactly that. First, I think destruction of a society happens when those corrections fail to resolve the destructive overrides of instinct.

But to the point, I would say that a pendulum isn't an adequate analogy. The correction isn't retracing. It's reverting selective aspects of the progression while keeping others. For example, no one in society wants to revert EVERTHING back to how it was in the 50s and 60s. Maybe you might want to revert some things back, like the prominence of the nuclear family, and the respectfulness demanded by parents of their children. But, I doubt anyone wants to revert much of the progress made in matters of race. Some of us might want to revert some of the laws and social policies, because we believe they're harmful to all races. Point is, not all progress is good, and the consensus of what is bad causes a healthy society to reject it.

I think that if we don't revert this social justice nonsense, this society will destroy itself. And who knows how long it will take for another free society to rise again.

Ratchet instead of pendulum? Only moves back to the right to obtain a new grip in order to move things even further left?

 

[BugI02]

Definitely agree. The pendulum is an old analogy. It seems almost adequate when using a historical perspective looking at our society in general terms. However when applied to the current society it falls apart miserably. As we look at the current society we are much more involved with different fragments because we are so much closer to today and generalization fails. Like using a microscope on today and a fuzzy window on yesterday. For instance I would say it is currently swinging right with regards to our economy what with trying to correct foreign trade policies and domestic manufacturing while at the same time it is swinging left with regard to education and morality, etc.

Schrödinger's genderqueer pendulum? It swings both ways until you make an observation