The Politicization Of Coronavirus...

[BugI02]

Sigh

Good thing that so many of those Blue states are able to contribute to the federal government, all while managing unsustainable pension programs.

Oak's post that you quoted in your reply (#331)

Exactly. Otherwise, the red states wouldn't be able to fund their own. Besides, Kentucky (red state) is the worst pension offender.

Your post that I quoted in my reply (#333)

https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/pensions-states-funding-deficits
https://taxfoundation.org/state-public-pension-plan-funding-coronavirus/

Oak mentioned unsustainable. Bug went to per household statistic which was not mentioned in Oak's Post or mine. Bug's best move would have been to ask for clarification from Oak or Me. Instead he proves he wants to disagree not have a constructive conversation. Which is ok. His knowledge may be great but its the 2nd time his research skills have come up lacking enough that, if I am interested in what he says, I should fact check it first.Using his own search terms, he could have looked at the top 5 hits and would have seen Kentucky listed as number 1.

You thought I had skipped over search results to cherry pick and you were wrong. Rather than admit that, you wanted to retcon your initial post to be that the subject was actually sustainability, but your numbers just indicate what percentage of pension liability a state has funded as if that relates to sustainability. Did it occur to you that a state with 1/8 the pension liability of New Jersey but only 1/3 funded might actually be more sustainable than NJ which has an only incrementally higher percentage of funding? It seems to me the worst offender would have the greatest unfunded liability in dollars not percentage. The only apples to apples comparison is per capita, per household fits that bill as would actual per capita. Would it not seem to you that in order to say which state is truly the worst, the size of the underfunding might be germane? Foz's best move would have been to ask for clarification from me. Instead he proves that he is more interested in scoring points not have a constructive conversation (after all, I answered your only question, how many search results did I skip. If you couldn't understand how you could be so wrong I would have helped)

Alternate source, true per capita comparison

https://fee.org/articles/the-5-stat...MInr2JnIqi6QIVj8DICh1h-QTyEAAYASAAEgKm1PD_BwE
The 5 States With the Most Underfunded Public Employee Pensions

Many state government-run pension plans are running short of the money needed to pay 100% of the retirement benefits that state politicians have promised to the teachers, police officers, firefighters, and other employees of state governments.


Different Methods of Measurement Lead To Different Results [Well, sha]


How short depends on the state and how you measure the amount of the shortfall. In October 2018, Bloomberg's Danielle Moran tallied the total liabilities and the funded portion that applies to each state’s public employee pension funds, finding that five states had funded less than 50% of the cost needed to pay for their promised state public employee’s pension benefits:

[Where your data comes from, although you don't seem aware of it]


Kentucky (33.9%)
New Jersey (35.8%)
Illinois (38.4%)
Connecticut (43.8%)
Colorado (47.1%)
Another way to measure the shortfall is to calculate the amount of money that each individual state resident would have to cough up to fully fund the cost of providing state government employees with the retirement benefits promised to them by state politicians. The chart below shows those figures as calculated from the 2018 pension funding data provided by Bloomberg and state population data from the U.S. Census Bureau.

View attachment 86877

Unfortunately, 48 other states would require each of their residents to pay more out of their pocket to cover their unfunded public employee pension liabilities. Going by this measure, the five states worst off include:


New Jersey ($16,009)
Illinois ($10,707)
Connecticut ($9,933)
Alaska ($9,733)
Colorado ($9,722)
Kentucky’s 4.4 million residents, which ranked the worst by its percentage of pension liability that has been funded, would have to each come up with $9,632 to fully fund their state government employees’ pensions.

 

[BugI02]

And this is the fifth entry on my search return of which you speak, that had you looked at it would show

https://www.policyed.org/pension-pursuit/pension-liability-state/map
INTERACTIVE MAP OF PENSION LIABILITY BY STATE AND CITY

Uhh, it's interactive; so if you want it to tell you anything you have to click on the little states

California claimed underfunded pension liabilities $309.4 billion dollars (better fact check that, sport. As you mentioned, I've had trouble with things not in scientific notation)
Market value of underfunded liabilities $990.7 billion

New Jersey claimed underfunded pension liabilities $142.3 billion dollars
Market value of underfunded liabilities $163.1 billion dollars

Kentucky claimed underfunded pension liabilities $51 billion dollars
Market value of underfunded pension liabilities $70.8 billion

Taking the states at their word $309.4 billion > $142.3 billion > $51 billion

Taking the worst case $990.7 billion > $163.1 billion > $70.8 billion

So which state has the worst underfunded pension liability, again?

 

[foszoe]

Sigh



Oak's post that you quoted in your reply (#331)



Your post that I quoted in my reply (#333)



You thought I had skipped over search results to cherry pick and you were wrong. Rather than admit that, you wanted to retcon your initial post to be that the subject was actually sustainability, but your numbers just indicate what percentage of pension liability a state has funded as if that relates to sustainability. Did it occur to you that a state with 1/8 the pension liability of New Jersey but only 1/3 funded might actually be more sustainable than NJ which has an only incrementally higher percentage of funding? It seems to me the worst offender would have the greatest unfunded liability in dollars not percentage. The only apples to apples comparison is per capita, per household fits that bill as would actual per capita. Would it not seem to you that in order to say which state is truly the worst, the size of the underfunding might be germane? Foz's best move would have been to ask for clarification from me. Instead he proves that he is more interested in scoring points not have a constructive conversation (after all, I answered your only question, how many search results did I skip. If you couldn't understand how you could be so wrong I would have helped)

Alternate source, true per capita comparison

https://fee.org/articles/the-5-stat...MInr2JnIqi6QIVj8DICh1h-QTyEAAYASAAEgKm1PD_BwE
The 5 States With the Most Underfunded Public Employee Pensions




View attachment 86877

Actually I can see now that I was quite right. You skipped over everyone after the very first one.

 

[BugI02]

Actually I can see now that I was quite right. You skipped over everyone after the very first one.

"It's not a lie if you believe it"

 

[OakRiver]

Here we go. The dems are almost ready to roll out their wish list of items to fundamentally transform America.

Pelosi, Schumer Set To Unveil Multi-Trillion Dollar, ‘Rooseveltian’ Coronavirus Relief Package

Oh look, another opportunity for the Democrats to hold the country hostage, again, while they try to further their agenda.

 

[OakRiver]

Actually I can see now that I was quite right. You skipped over everyone after the very first one.

Just so I understand this correctly, you still consider that Kentucky is the "worst pension offender". Lets look at that:

Kentucky:
Population: 4,468,000
Unfunded State Pensions per Resident: $9,632
Total Unfunded State Pensions: 4468000 x 9632 = $43,035,776,000

New Jersey:
Population: 8,882,000
Unfunded State Pensions per Resident: $16,009
Total Unfunded State Pensions: 8,882,000 x 16,009 = $142,191,938,000 (or $99,156,162,000, or 3.3 times, more than Kentucky)

California:
Population: 39,510,000
Unfunded State Pensions per Resident: $6,279
Total Unfunded State Pensions: 39,510,000 x 6,279 = $248,083,290,000 (or $205,047,514,000, or 5.8 times, more than Kentucky)

Sorry, I cannot support the contention that Kentucky is the "worst pension offender". If I spend 33% of $100 I spend $33.33. If I spend 10% of $1000 I spend $100. With those two amounts, it sounds better to say that I only spent 10% of my money. Just because a person spends a higher % it does not mean that, in real terms, they spent more money.

 

[foszoe]

If one changes the definition to be right, then by definition one is right.

Just so I understand this correctly, you still consider that Kentucky is the "worst pension offender". Lets look at that:

Kentucky:
Population: 4,468,000
Unfunded State Pensions per Resident: $9,632
Total Unfunded State Pensions: 4468000 x 9632 = $43,035,776,000

New Jersey:
Population: 8,882,000
Unfunded State Pensions per Resident: $16,009
Total Unfunded State Pensions: 8,882,000 x 16,009 = $142,191,938,000 (or $99,156,162,000, or 3.3 times, more than Kentucky)

California:
Population: 39,510,000
Unfunded State Pensions per Resident: $6,279
Total Unfunded State Pensions: 39,510,000 x 6,279 = $248,083,290,000 (or $205,047,514,000, or 5.8 times, more than Kentucky)

Sorry, I cannot support the contention that Kentucky is the "worst pension offender". If I spend 33% of $100 I spend $33.33. If I spend 10% of $1000 I spend $100. With those two amounts, it sounds better to say that I only spent 10% of my money. Just because a person spends a higher % it does not mean that, in real terms, they spent more money.

 

[actaeon277]

Enough. No more handouts! NONE!

When did debt have no meaning? Have we been in a low inflation period too long to remember what 21% interest rates looked like?

To me, this seems like the guy at work breaking a safety rule.
If he got hurt EVERY time he broke a safety rule, he would NEVER break the rules.
But he has a certain percent chance of getting hurt doing a job.
Breaking the rule increases his chances. By some amount.
So, he doesn't get hurt.
Next time he thinks, well, I didn't get hurt. It must be a stupid rule. So he breaks it again.
This happens a dozen times. A dozen times he's okay.
Until he's not.
Then he's not sure why he broke the rule, and he thinks the company should "pay" for him breaking the rule.
Cause if they REALLY meant safety was important, they would do SOMETHING.


Same thing with debt.
We go into debt.
No big deal.
Then more debt.
No big deal.
Repeat a dozen times.
Then the house of cards fall down, and everyone will be looking for someone else to blame.


Just my opinion.

 

[OakRiver]

If one changes the definition to be right, then by definition one is right.

No more platitudes. What are you contesting exactly? That $43,035,776,000 is worse than $142,191,938,000 or $248,083,290,000?

 

[foszoe]

Neither.

No more platitudes. What are you contesting exactly? That $43,035,776,000 is worse than $142,191,938,000 or $248,083,290,000?

 

[OakRiver]

Neither.

So what have Bug and I posted that are you taking issue with, and what demonstrates that Kentucky is "worst pension offender"?

 

[MCgrease08]

Oh for Pete's sake. The election of Donald Trump really does seem to have done something to these people's brains.

Yale Epidemiologist: Trump’s COVID-19 Response ‘Close To Genocide’

Yale epidemiologist and legal scholar Gregg Gonsalves suggested the Trump administration may in fact be guilty of genocide for pushing for the reopening of America because COVID-19 has disproportionately affected minority populations.

According to The College Fix, Gonsalves launched a series of tweets on Wednesday saying the Trump administration’s response to the pandemic is “close to genocide,” without citing any particular evidence to support his bizarre claim.

...

“How many people will die this summer, before Election Day? What proportion of the deaths will be among African-Americans, Latinos, other people of color? This is getting awfully close to genocide by default. What else do you call mass death by public policy?” Gonsalves tweeted.

My grandfather got his undergraduate degree and PhD from Yale. He would be spinning in his grave right now, had he not been cremated, at seeing what's happened at his beloved alma mater.

 

[BugI02]

No more platitudes. What are you contesting exactly? That $43,035,776,000 is worse than $142,191,938,000 or $248,083,290,000?

That definition of unsustainable, that we never discussed or agreed on? Well, the way that he has chosen to look at the concept isn't the only way, so we're changing it unfairly or something

 

[jamil]

Makes sense. They are probably tired of donating to all the poor red states.

I think that’s a partisan, facile view of the issue. Blue states aren’t donating to red states. At least not literally in the way that sounds. In poor southern states the incomes and therefore federal income taxes paid, compared to federal funds distributed in the state, including entitlements. Some of the largely populated blue states, like California, have higher incomes and higher taxes, compared to the federal funds coming in. It’s not true to say that those states donate to red states.

 

[actaeon277]

[video=youtube;ZdkH_39pK2w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdkH_39pK2w[/video]

 

[actaeon277]

I will point out, Tim talks about a protest taking place for the shooting of an "unarmed" man.
But then he walks that back and states, he doesn't know if he was or not.

 

[MCgrease08]

[video=youtube;ZdkH_39pK2w]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdkH_39pK2w[/video]

Ha ha, I just posted this (and have since redacted it) in the other CoronaVirus political thread. The one with the poll.

This isn't just politicizing. It's down right unconstitutional. A large group of well regulated men need to pay Mayor deBlasio a visit, escort him to the city limits and wish him good day.

 

[actaeon277]

Ha ha, I just posted this in the other CoronaVirus political thread. The one with the poll.

This isn't just politicizing. It's down right unconstitutional. A large group of well regulated men need to pay Mayor deBlasio a visit, escort him to the city limits and wish him good day.

Now if we can just get the "people" to WAKE UP.

 

[MCgrease08]

Now if we can just get the "people" to WAKE UP.

It would probably only take a couple of hundred concerned citizens. I'm sure they could find that many in a city as big as NYC.

It's not like Billy D. is beloved by the NYPD. I doubt they'd rush in to break up a determined crowd.

 

[foszoe]

As the politicization of C-19 continues, it appears to me the blue states are looking to play chicken with the republicans in general for a bailout of their bankrupt states, particularly their bankrupt pensions...

Makes sense. They are probably tired of donating to all the poor red states.

Good thing that so many of those Blue states are able to contribute to the federal government, all while managing unsustainable pension programs.

Exactly. Otherwise, the red states wouldn't be able to fund their own. Besides, Kentucky (red state) is the worst pension offender.

So what have Bug and I posted that are you taking issue with, and what demonstrates that Kentucky is "worst pension offender"?

The post I replied to was the one I took issue with because it is a conclusion without evidence, could even be called a platitude, so I offered one back as a response. That is a conclusion without evidence. You responded in kind, so I did likewise to your post. I took no issues with Bugs specific posts or your responses in regards to pension funding. If we want to further define the premises to each of our conclusions, we probably would agree.

As to Bug in general, he provides me with a good laugh, and i mean that literally, I laugh out loud sometimes and he probably does the same to mine. I believe he is more interested in being right than having an actual discussion so I like to see where he goes with his posts, what he will respond to and what he will ignore is a game for me as I like to predict where he will go and see if I am right. He makes assumptions without evidence. He falsely attributes motive and uses contradictory evidence as proof of a point in the same post. One thing he typically does not do is admit error. For example, twice he attributes my source as ultimately being Bloomberg without any evidence nor does he provide any evidence for his claim.