The Open Carry Argument

[rgrimm01]

Thought:

While venturing into the woods (in a non hunting scenerio), would you carry a firearm? Why? How would you carry? If the answer is yes because of the threat of having to defend oneself and by an easily accessible holster, how is this any different than going to the (store) where the possibility of having to defend oneself is much greater?

 

[iChokePeople]

Thought:

While venturing into the woods (in a non hunting scenerio), would you carry a firearm? Why? How would you carry? If the answer is yes because of the threat of having to defend oneself and by an easily accessible holster, how is this any different than going to the (store) where the possibility of having to defend oneself is much greater?

Because squirrels don't ask stupid questions, don't want to talk to you about why you feel the need to carry a gun, rarely place a(n) MWAG call, and almost never participate in the kind of ambush in which the whole "element of surprise vs. deterrent effect" argument comes into play? Seriously -- whey I go in the woods, I want those little tree rats to know for SURE that I'm carrying so they won't try any $&#* with me.

 

[Yup!]

To the OP. I've OC'd a few times, and I generally CC. While I agree with much of what you said, and I do believe your points to be true, the biggest reason I do not OC is this:

Lets say I OC to church. I do this for many years, No problem. Then suddenly, the church adds a preschool to the basement, and I didn't know. I'm suddenly breaking the law. Sure, Im breaking the law either way, but OC is more likely to get noticed and get me reported. When I OC, I advertise that Im breaking the law. Even when i didn't think I was.

What If Im downtown Indy and walking around OC. Things are good. I don't clearly know the boundaries of the IUPUI campus. What If I am actually on IUPUI property, but didn't know it? I'm now openly breaking the law. If I'm cc, theres a better chance that I will be able to figure it out on my own, and fix the situation without getting in trouble.

What if I OC in a state park, and the local school is also having a field trip? Is the state park now protected as "school property" - I don't know. If I am cc, I don't care (as much), If Im OC, I need to find out quickly what the law is.

I carry for self defense, not just the defense of my life, but the defense of my freedom. The likelihood of getting in trouble by LE while OC is far greater than getting into a gun fight. So to preserve my livelihood, I choose to CC most of the time, so that I don't accidentally break the law, and have a LE confront me for doing so, even when I thought I was doing it right.

 

[Scutter01]

To the OP. I've OC'd a few times, and I generally CC. While I agree with much of what you said, and I do believe your points to be true, the biggest reason I do not OC is this:

Lets say I OC to church. I do this for many years, No problem. Then suddenly, the church adds a preschool to the basement, and I didn't know. I'm suddenly breaking the law. Sure, Im breaking the law either way, but OC is more likely to get noticed and get me reported. When I OC, I advertise that Im breaking the law. Even when i didn't think I was.

What If Im downtown Indy and walking around OC. Things are good. I don't clearly know the boundaries of the IUPUI campus. What If I am actually on IUPUI property, but didn't know it? I'm now openly breaking the law. If I'm cc, theres a better chance that I will be able to figure it out on my own, and fix the situation without getting in trouble.

What if I OC in a state park, and the local school is also having a field trip? Is the state park now protected as "school property" - I don't know. If I am cc, I don't care (as much), If Im OC, I need to find out quickly what the law is.

I carry for self defense, not just the defense of my life, but the defense of my freedom. The likelihood of getting in trouble by LE while OC is far greater than getting into a gun fight. So to preserve my livelihood, I choose to CC most of the time, so that I don't accidentally break the law, and have a LE confront me for doing so, even when I thought I was doing it right.

So, your argument is that you CC for those times when you accidentally commit a felony?

 

[Dead Duck]

What Glock has a factory safety?

Well...............The one on the right. Obviously!

Glock make them for certain agencies that requested them. They are actual, factory made Glocks called the "17S".

Look 3/4 the way down this page. Under "Regional variants".

 

[Yup!]

So, your argument is that you CC for those times when you accidentally commit a felony?

You summarize differently. I've studied the law.

The Post office debate comes up a lot. Some say its federal property, some say it isn't . (not debating that here, just an example) - If Im in the camp that is perfectly legal to carry in a post office. I can back it with my research, and maybe even case law. (I cant by the way, just making an example) If I am personally convinced that it is ok, and I OC, and its not OK, its a different scenario.

I personally err on the side of caution, and dont even CC, if im not sure. But I cant know everything, and if Im wrong, I'd rather be CC, than OC.

 

[Hoosierdood]

To the OP. I've OC'd a few times, and I generally CC. While I agree with much of what you said, and I do believe your points to be true, the biggest reason I do not OC is this:

Lets say I OC to church. I do this for many years, No problem. Then suddenly, the church adds a preschool to the basement, and I didn't know. I'm suddenly breaking the law. Sure, Im breaking the law either way, but OC is more likely to get noticed and get me reported. When I OC, I advertise that Im breaking the law. Even when i didn't think I was.

What If Im downtown Indy and walking around OC. Things are good. I don't clearly know the boundaries of the IUPUI campus. What If I am actually on IUPUI property, but didn't know it? I'm now openly breaking the law. If I'm cc, theres a better chance that I will be able to figure it out on my own, and fix the situation without getting in trouble.

What if I OC in a state park, and the local school is also having a field trip? Is the state park now protected as "school property" - I don't know. If I am cc, I don't care (as much), If Im OC, I need to find out quickly what the law is.

I carry for self defense, not just the defense of my life, but the defense of my freedom. The likelihood of getting in trouble by LE while OC is far greater than getting into a gun fight. So to preserve my livelihood, I choose to CC most of the time, so that I don't accidentally break the law, and have a LE confront me for doing so, even when I thought I was doing it right.

Do you have actual evidence that any of these scenarios have happened in the past? If your church started a daycare, would you know? Could you talk to your minister and tell him that you carry and ask that he inform you in the event that the church structure changes? (BTW, I generally OC, but church is one place that I never OC - personal reasons)

Are you aware that IUPUI is a university and does not fall under the definition of "school", thus not making it illegal to carry there? They may have a policy against carrying there, and may ask you to leave, but it is not illegal.

What about carrying at a state park or any other establishment that may be visited by a field trip? There is no case law suggesting that you will be arrested and/or convicted on any weapons charges.

I will admit that you may find yourself in more confrontations with LE if you OC, but if you know the law yourself, you may just be able to turn it into an opportunity for education. No offense to you personally, but I find that many who oppose OC try to invent hypothetical situations to build their basis for avoiding OC. The problem is that most of their arguments are unsubstantiated and when challenged, the argument is completely shot down.

 

[Roadie]

You summarize differently. I've studied the law.

The Post office debate comes up a lot. Some say its federal property, some say it isn't . (not debating that here, just an example) - If Im in the camp that is perfectly legal to carry in a post office. I can back it with my research, and maybe even case law. (I cant by the way, just making an example) If I am personally convinced that it is ok, and I OC, and its not OK, its a different scenario.

I personally err on the side of caution, and dont even CC, if im not sure. But I cant know everything, and if Im wrong, I'd rather be CC, than OC.

So, you've studied the law, but don't know that College carry is legal?

Might I suggest more study?

 

[thompal]

So, you've studied the law, but don't know that College carry is legal?

Might I suggest more study?

There's a situation that came up the other day when I read a mention in the newspaper that Washington Square Mall has, or will have, a charter school in it. I'm unclear what that's going to do to carry on that property now (or later). If it is considered school property, you can't leave a firearm in your car in the parking lot, if the entire property will be considered 'school property.'

 

[Yup!]

So, you've studied the law, but don't know that College carry is legal?

Might I suggest more study?

That's why I'm here. I'm new to IN law so all I've had is what I've read. This is my only chance to discuss it with someone else who has read it. If you were perfectly clear on the cans and cants after reading the law - great! I'm am not that smart.

Precisely why I either don't carry, or OC until im more certain I'm following the law. I consider this forum the next step in my studies.

 

[Rookie]

Someone has to point out that this isn't the same old argument.

 

[Hayseed_40]

Someone has to point out that this isn't the same old argument.

A better argumnent would be whether we have a FAQ or not.

 

[Dead Duck]

If we had a FAQ, the OC argument should be put in there about how it is a better way to carry. This way the FAQ tells us what to do then - no more arguments.
And Glitter "My Little Ponies" will Fart Synchronized Rainbows Forever.- 'POOF'

 

[finity]

Do you have actual evidence that any of these scenarios have happened in the past?

Can you say that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they haven't - or wouldn't - or couldn't?

(BTW, I generally OC, but church is one place that I never OC - personal reasons)

Ah, your reasons, personal though they may be, are good enough for you to decide to not OC but others reasons are invalid?

You don't necessarily need to go into specifics but could you give us a general description of what YOU consider a "good" reason to not OC in some particula place/situation?

I will admit that you may find yourself in more confrontations with LE if you OC, but if you know the law yourself, you may just be able to turn it into an opportunity for education.

And what if the person just doesn't WANT to educate others? What if they decide that the extra hassle that they may have to put up with just isn't something they're willing to endure for some unquantifiable "benefit"?

I don't see how any reasonable person could say that is not a very valid & reasonable reason to decide that OC is not for them.

No offense to you personally, but I find that many who oppose OC try to invent hypothetical situations to build their basis for avoiding OC. The problem is that most of their arguments are unsubstantiated and when challenged, the argument is completely shot down.

As I said above, please tell us your "reasons" that you don't OC in certain situations so that the OC advocates can shoot it down, as well.

I, & others, have given a few reasons as to why someone may decide that OC is not for them & no one has "completely shot them down".

I'll summarize again:

Hassle by LE & others- you admit the probability of this yourself.

Targeted for your gun - I've shown at least 1 example (that is beyond a reasonable doubt) in which a guy was targeted because of his OC gun & a couple of others where the preponderance of evidence seems to suggest a strong possibility that they were targeted for their gun. If it has happened once, it could happen again & it could happen to you.

Possibility of a gun grab (which is a distinct subset of the above) - If it wasn't a possibility then there would be no reason for some peoples adamant insistence that those who OC use a retention type holster - that goes for cops & non-cops equally. I also doubt that the vast majority of those who tell people to use retention holsters have the possibility of it just falling out during physical activities as their main concern, as has been suggested. It may be a concern but I doubt it's the biggest one.

Unecessarily making others around them uncomfortable - while I don't really think that this SHOULD be a concern for someone to decide how they carry (just my opinion & has no bearing on the discussion), it nonetheless IS a concern & a valid one at that. No one here could argue that there are those that are uncomfortable around guns. It is also a fact that some people are actually concerned about the feelings of others & just don't want to be a "nuisance" in the places they frequent.

Please shoot these down. I'll wait...



These are real valid concerns. I will grant that some are less likely than others but the pro-OC crowd can only point to many equally unsubstantiated/unquantifiable/opinion based BUT EQUALLY VALID reasons (to THEM) why they do OC. It's just that IN THEIR OPINION they have decided the possible benefits outweigh the possible downsides. In any given situation for any given person that cost/benefit analysis could reasonably go the other way, like say, Hoosierdood going to church.

 

[Dead Duck]

OC is a preference chosen by individuals that feel comfortable in doing so. This may not be for everyone.(Hence this Thread)
Not comfortable Open Carrying? Then don't. Nobody is forcing anyone to do so.

This country was founded to establish certain freedoms.(like OCing)

What's also great is the freedom for those to voice their own opinions.
Even when they're wrong.

 

[Hoosierdood]

finity - to answer your question as to why I don't carry at church, I feel it would detract from the real reason that we go to church. Also, since I am the pastor, and I know that some in my congregation are anti-gun, I don't want to take away from their worship. I still carry while I am delivering the sermon, I just cover it up.

I wasn't trying to attack anyone's decision to CC, I was just pointing out several facts in their argument that they may not have considered. Everyone is entitles to their opinion on how to carry. I choose to OC most of the time. If someone wants to CC, that's fine. What I'm trying to do is challenge those hypothetical arguments that are spouted at gun shops and ranges that may be less than accurate. How many times do we hear someone say "Well this guy at the gun shop said..." and then go on to explain a completely false assumption about Indiana law? The same thing happens often regarding OC. I am fine with however someone chooses to carry - whether OC or CC. I just want them to have all the facts so that they can make an educated decision.

 

[finity]

finity - to answer your question as to why I don't carry at church, I feel it would detract from the real reason that we go to church. Also, since I am the pastor, and I know that some in my congregation are anti-gun, I don't want to take away from their worship. I still carry while I am delivering the sermon, I just cover it up.

Ok, thanks. So it's reason #4 in my list above, then.

Sounds like an acceptable reason to me.

But, playing "devil's advocate" here, couldn't you just OC & make that a "teachable moment" as you suggested above?

Why wouldn't the decision based on harrassment from LE be just as acceptable seeing as the interaction with LE could end up having much more serious results (even if the OC'er is doing nothing illegal - we all know it's happened) than if it is just a pastor in front of his congregation?

I wasn't trying to attack anyone's decision to CC,

Sorry if I misunderstood but that's kind of what it sounded like especially when you say things like "many who oppose OC try to invent hypothetical situations to build their basis for avoiding OC" or "their arguments are unsubstantiated and when challenged, the argument is completely shot down".

Many of those people who are against OC aren't trying to invent things or come up with reasons that need to be shot down. They are just telling us the reasons they don't OC & IN THEIR OPINION why others shouldn't either.

Until they cross the line into trying to FORCE someone to not OC then there is no harm in people giving their opinions & reasons on OC.

I was just pointing out several facts in their argument that they may not have considered. Everyone is entitles to their opinion on how to carry. I choose to OC most of the time. If someone wants to CC, that's fine. What I'm trying to do is challenge those hypothetical arguments that are spouted at gun shops and ranges that may be less than accurate. How many times do we hear someone say "Well this guy at the gun shop said..." and then go on to explain a completely false assumption about Indiana law? The same thing happens often regarding OC.

If they are using the IC as a basis to not OC or to say that others shouldn't OC then that is obviously wrong & should be challenged as such. I'll even stand right beside you in support of OC if the argument against it is some fictional law or the Constitution.

Otherwise I think OC'ers should accept that their decision to OC is also based largely on opinion rather than fact just as it is for those who decide that CC is best for them.

I just want them to have all the facts so that they can make an educated decision.

Same here. Hence the reason I got involved in this discussion.

Well...that and sometimes I just like a good argument.

 

[1911 mike]

Just a few weeks ago I had an encounter with an Indiana State Police officer that questioned my open carry. I think I posted it several weeks ago and as it turned out, he wondered why I was carrying in the open. I was ready for such an encounter by having the Indiana laws and regs in my wallet. After reading it he said "guess you learn something new every day." My point is that there are so many people that DO NOT know the laws of CC or OC, ie: ISP officer for one, and I'm sure there are a million others. What we need is a march in some of the bigger cities here in Indiana to educate the masses! I have open carried for quite some time and my encounter with this officer was the first.
I see both sides of the essay. What is needed is more education on this matter and to open carry you will need to use some common sense as to where your carrying in the open. Understand how bank tellers feel when you come into the bank carrying a firearm. As the pastor says, he CC's in his church as to ease the feelings of those that do not see it like he does. There is a time and a place for your firearm. I feel that common sense dictates when, too and when not too. We are given the option to CC or OC and that is what we should all do. You make the choice, and that's your right! I for one feel more education on this matter is needed. It is a great essay!! Bottom line~~ carry, be it concealed or open, just carry...............

 

[rgrimm01]

Because squirrels don't ask stupid questions, don't want to talk to you about why you feel the need to carry a gun, rarely place a(n) MWAG call, and almost never participate in the kind of ambush in which the whole "element of surprise vs. deterrent effect" argument comes into play? Seriously -- whey I go in the woods, I want those little tree rats to know for SURE that I'm carrying so they won't try any $&#* with me.

Funny thing about the written word and not being able to readily discern intent and emotion.... Such as was that a "stupid question" or do "I feel the need to carry a gun". I had read the thread from the start and found the ongoing debate to be both fascinating and captivating. There appears to be 3 camps (OC, CC or both) seemingly entrenched. Reminds me of the Chevy/Ford debates. While reading, I found myself wondering if I had an affinity for a particular form of carry. The question just may have been that, a question....

 

[Hoosierdood]

Funny thing about the written word and not being able to readily discern intent and emotion.... Such as was that a "stupid question" or do "I feel the need to carry a gun". I had read the thread from the start and found the ongoing debate to be both fascinating and captivating. There appears to be 3 camps (OC, CC or both) seemingly entrenched. Reminds me of the Chevy/Ford debates. While reading, I found myself wondering if I had an affinity for a particular form of carry. The question just may have been that, a question....

I think it would be a safe assumption to take EVERYTHING that iChokePeople says as sarcasm.